Fourth-year student found guilty of lying at UVA

Colleges & Universities University of Virginia
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<p>So 18-year-olds are mature enough to get drafted and be sent away to die for their country, but not old enough to be trusted to know how to drink in moderation?</p>

<p>The majority of underage drinkers are in fact, responsible drinkers. Nothing magically happens to the social harm function when you cross that age-of-21 barrier. Tell me, how do the harms of underage drinking differ from the harms of over-21 drinking? So the risk is slightly higher as age goes down. So, clearly you would support racial profiling then. I know, we should suspend the rights of minorities to own firearms or buy their own alcohol because the statistics show those groups have higher rates of abuse. I know, we should even prevent them from getting housing in certain areas because statistics is such a great reason for trampling over individual rights. </p>

<p>Let us go with your brilliant logic then. But let us take it to its full extension: we should legally prohibit anyone over 40 from giving birth, clamp down on non-heterosexual sex, and prevent low-income students from attending college because the statistics all show the risks are higher. Legally prohibit romantic relationships in high school. You know why? The statistics show that those in relationships tend to have lower grades, and that comes at a cost to society.</p>

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<p>Uhh I’m not. </p>

<p>I’m comparing victimisation. And I’m doing it rhetorically. And Jason Smith did not cheat – he lied to why he passed in the assignment late. And he also skipped class. That’s it. </p>

<p>I didn’t compare cheating to rape. I compared getting expelled for a trivial offence to getting raped. And I used it rhetorically. The fact that his actions were dumb doesn’t justify his punishment of expulsion, in the same way that being dumb doesn’t suddenly take away your legal rights that protect you against rape.</p>

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<p>All of the unbiased reports on this matter agree that the charge was trivial and the system rigged. Professors, third year law students and a significant portion of the student body agree Smith was not treated fairly. I would rather face the police, like Mary’s soriety sister who was caught stealing, and have a fair hearing than face the biased process of Mary Mouse and her Mickey Mouse cohorts.</p>

<p>Globalist why would anyone join a group of self righteous jerks? You said Smith did a dumb thing. Haven’t we all at one time or another? But your advice is sound. We need to work together to change the system. It is the honorable thing to do.
The current process is not about honor it is about power hungry fools who have not yet learned how to calculate the implications of their own actions. IMHO they have bought shame to the honor code.</p>

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<p>Amen, Vistany, so well spoken.</p>

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<p>A few thoughts: </p>

<p>-Those of you who have criticized Honor’s permissive attitude towards lying about age to obtain alcohol need to understand that that “lie” is trivial at best. Honor voted in 1934 and again in 1969 to not pursue charges against students caught using fake IDs for the purchase of alcoholic beverages. The current position is “no position”, however. Regardless, a lie to obtain something that is being denied to you by oppressive governmental restrictions should not be prosecuted by a progressive university.</p>

<p>-People have been saying some rather rotten things about Mary Siegel. I don’t know her personally but I was around her during my Honor counsel training and during Honor meetings. In my experience she was hard-working and dedicated to Honor, but like most people who become highly involved in Honor (or the stupid political organizations on grounds), I’m sure she was particularly ambitious, if not power-hungry. But who cares? In the process of overseeing a LASE course a student blatantly lied to her. That much seems to be clear. How was she supposed to respond? My criticism of the Jason Smith incident lies more with Honor’s definition of seriousness (or, the more recent term "non-triviality). Remember, to be convicted of an Honor offense, one’s actions must meet the criteria of act, intent and non-triviality. Mr. Smith certainly committed the act and lied about, but was the act serious enough to merit conviction? And does his conviction merit expulsion and the loss of two years’ worth of time and tuition? I don’t think so.</p>

<p>Many, if not most, cases reported to Honor never make it to trial. Those that do are, more often than not, so egregious and stupid that I’m glad the offenders were expelled. Really, there is surprising amount of “Darwin Award”-style cheating that goes on and, more often than not, it’s caught by professors and the student is convicted. </p>

<p>Those of you who are current students, about to enroll or considering applying should take comfort in the fact that most students convicted of Honor offenses are, well, dishonest or just plain stupid. You shouldn’t be afraid of the Honor system - people aren’t kicked out for things that are avoidable. Things like accidentally omitting a single citation in a lengthy research paper never make it to trial if the prof is d0uchey enough to even report such a thing.</p>

<p>I do believe that there’s a great deal of discussion that must go on to make the Honor system better and more effective, as the Jason Smith debacle has shown, but expulsion for egregious dishonorable acts should not be tolerated at this university. More minor dishonorable acts perhaps could be tracked to UJC. Perhaps the University community would have been better off if Jason Smith had performed community service of some sort during the spring semester and then walked with his class at graduation. As it stands, certain mildly dishonorable acts, like using a fake ID, are already handled by UJC (which I was also involved with).</p>

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<p>“I’m sure she was particularly ambitious, if not power-hungry. But who cares?”</p>

<p>People like Jason Smith I’m sure do care, she just single-handedly ruined his life. </p>

<p>“You shouldn’t be afraid of the Honor system - people aren’t kicked out for things that are avoidable. Things like accidentally omitting a single citation in a lengthy research paper never make it to trial if the prof is d0uchey enough to even report such a thing.”</p>

<p>This is a lie. My best friend was brought up for forgetting to cite a single quotation in her political theory paper by her TA, it does and can happen to anyone. </p>

<p>You were involved in Honor and in UJC, so you’re biased either way. If Mary Siegel was so proud of her actions, she wouldn’t be hiding, avoiding people and deactivating her facebook acount.</p>

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<p>“she just single-handedly ruined his life.”</p>

<p>No, I don’t believe thats true. Whatever may come being expelled or being forced to leave school is not the end of life. It will make the next few years more difficult, and on a personal level thats unfortunate, but that is it.</p>

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<p>edit “professional life”</p>

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<p>She didn’t ruin his life on her own. He had a large part in it, as did the investigative panel that allowed the trial to take place and the jury of his peers that convicted him. Again, what was Mary Siegel supposed to do? You have to admit, lying to an Honor committee member in a seminar about Honor and ethics is pretty damn stupid.</p>

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<p>Recuse herself during the trial, maybe? How can you be both a witness and a member of the Committee?</p>

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<p>“You have to admit, lying to an Honor committee member in a seminar about Honor and ethics is pretty damn stupid.”</p>

<p>Because it is so damn stupid as you say, the punishment he’s receiving is not warranted.</p>

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<p>The role of the Vice Chair for Investigations is merely to oversee proper completion of investigations, reports, investigative panels and certain trial procedures, not to preside over the trial like some sort of judge. You see, cases are formally arranged by an investigative panel, “argued” by counsel and then “decided” by a jury of students. There’s not much she could do by “recusing” herself from the trial.</p>

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<p>lolwut? If by “stupid” you mean “completely trivial”, then yes, I agree. Plenty of stupid actions should be severely punished, but many are trivial enough that they shouldn’t result in expulsion.</p>

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<p>Yes, but she probably exerted unfair influence over the investigative panel. I wonder if not for her influence whether the case would have even gone to trial.</p>

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<p>Probably? That’s pure, ignorant speculation.</p>

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<p>It was significant enough of an infelicity in trial procedure. In real life, that sort of conflict of interest would have gotten a case thrown out (without prejudice).</p>

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<p>That’s just silliness. Again, you don’t know how the process works and you’re imagining corruption where it’s more likely than not that none existed. You do realize that if she wasn’t on the investigative panel, she only certified that the investigation had been properly completed, right?</p>

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<p>I don’t understand why I’m even trying to argue with a former member of the Honor Committe who is clearly ~more knowledgeable than the rest of us in the outer circle. Round of applause for Mary Siegel, to the Honor Committee and to the fair and transparent trial that Jason Smith got. </p>

<p>Everyone applying to UVA: This ~NEVER happens, just once in a while are people in the honor committee power-tripping, hopefully you’ll be lucky enough to have a friend or two in the honor committee, may be you’ll get off like Mary’s friend Taylor after stealing an Ipod.</p>

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<p>WOW! I just read this entire thread (boring day at work ;)) and am amazed at this situation. A few thoughts from a completely unbiased observer…</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Vistany - your posts have not only been well written, concise, incisive and thoughtful, but also SPOT ON! You should be on the Honor Committee.</p></li>
<li><p>the letter written in the Cavalier by the 3rd year law student covering the sketchiness of the proceedings is chilling in that it is pointed out that there was no way that this guy could get a fair trial. </p></li>
<li><p>the letter written by the professors stating that they believe the violation is trivial (because, face it folks, it is) should be taken into account by the administration. I loved how they pointed out that over the years they had heard every type of excuse, and if all prevaricators had been brought up on honors charges, there would be far fewer students on campus ;). True That…</p></li>
<li><p>Why in the heck are students teaching a course??? Why are students given that kind of power and authority?? Obviously, they have alot of power or this guy would not be expelled. And, obviously they had no business teaching, I mean COME ON, write a 3-4 page report on why you shouldn’t skip class??? Even the professors said that this type of punitive assignment is demeaning, not only to the student but to the university. Why didn’t she just make him write, “I will not lie.” 1,000 times on the blackboard?</p></li>
<li><p>In a perfect world (with colored rainbows and pretty ponies) people don’t lie, but as a businesswoman, I can tell you that they do on a daily basis. Doesn’t make it right, just stating reality. This guy’s lie is so unbelievably trivial as to be laughable. To be expelled for this is just ridiculous. Poor kid.</p></li>
<li><p>Mary sure sounds alot like Tracy Flick in “Election” - power hungry and just plain nasty. But, she is sure getting hers right now. I wonder if she knows that when she goes to interview for jobs in the future, her current conduct (considering it is so public and readily available for perusal on the internet) will come into question. I’m sure she considered her elected position a positive move for resume building. Unfortunately, her involvement in this scandal can only come back and bite her in the bottom.</p></li>
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<p>Carry on UVA students :)</p>

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<p>Let’s add that jury of his peers were absent as well. Most of the jury were first- and second-years, which is just ridiculous.</p>

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<p>Here’s a thought, rather than complaining about the fairness of the trial, maybe the student should not have lied about such a trivial matter and put his career at UVA in jeopardy. He tried to beat the system and got burned. Maybe this Mary girl is just power hungry, but in this case she’s right. If students lie and professors or TA’s let it go, that demeans the honor code, as well as the hard work and honesty of students who choose to abide by the honor code.</p>

<p>I do feel bad for the student who was expelled. I feel bad that a lapse of judgement cost him so much, but unfortunately, those are the consequences, and they are made pretty clear from the moment you apply to UVA.</p>

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<p>CMBHWV–lolz, clearly ~makes his user name to defend the honor committee and Mary Siegel. I’m sure he has never lied in his life.</p>