<p>07Dad, I also appreciate your post. </p>
<p>A lot of colleges have every freshman do an alcohol.edu course as part of freshman orientation as do many greek organizations. Most of these students can tell you all the statistics. The difficulty with adolescents (and I believe they are adolescents in college) is the prevalent “It won’t happen to me” belief system. Studies have shown that even after an alcohol poisoning death, behaviors in students at that school only change for 6 weeks.</p>
<p>That’s because they follow the lead of university leaders, who change for even less than six weeks.</p>
<p>I think there several things to keep in mind regarding an incident like this. </p>
<p>First, this type of incident is extremely rare. That’s not to say hazing doesn’t happen, but it’s far more rare than the media portrays it. There are tens of thousands of active fraternity and sorority members nationwide, and a very select number of these types of incidents happen. </p>
<p>Second, most of the posters here are forgetting all of the GOOD things that Greek life brings to the table. Chapters across the country raise thousands to tens of thousands of dollars for both campus and national charities and many require volunteer and service hours as well. In addition, it is a great way for students to feel like they belong to a community within a school, and for students to make friends and meet people in a sea of faces. I can definitely say I met my friends for life, and when I moved to a new city, I used the alumnae group to meet some amazing people.</p>
<p>With that many good frats and sororities, you should not be missing the chapters that do not seem to keep their nose clean. </p>
<p>Since the incidents are so rare, nobody should object the immediate and irrevocable death penalty for the few chapters that cause bodily harm.</p>
<p>Why are the Greeks fighting so hard to save the rotten apples? The answer is obvious.</p>
<p>I actually don’t think the answer is obvious, xiggi. why DO they fight so hard to save the rotten apples? I sincerely think that if they were to take the stance with their chapters that these type of violations will lead to us closing you down, forever. They’d all stop with it after the first few were closed.</p>
<p>JMO</p>
<p>They do close chapters and it does have some effect, but the central problem is bigger than hazing or rowdy drunken parties. Closing some is like building a few sea walls. These problems don’t exist in a vacuum- a school cracks down and magically the storm winds abate, kids no longer test their limits. Imo, there’s an inherent problem when the kids are willing to go to excess, even eager.</p>
<p>Also, it’s not just the schools’ responsibility- I am sure many of us have had the experience of another parent telling us, “not my kid.”</p>
<p>They protect the “rotten apples” because they are brothers and sisters, with their not having been discovered as such yet just a matter of chance.</p>
<p>Yes, I know some of them feed the sick, clothe the hungry, and heal the naked (or at least they do in-between binges.) But let’s be real: we’ve got really good national data on fraternities and sororities and their association with rape, sexual assault, assault, property destruction, binge drinking, drug use, and long-term alcohol and drug problems and alcoholism. And yes, I know, tens of thousands end up just fine, thank you, and have bonded for life. And there are plenty of folks not involved in fraternities guilty of same. Doesn’t make the data go away.</p>
<p>The fraternities and sororities can easily deal with this problem (and some have). Go dry. Completely. Without regard to age. It’s working just fine at the University of Oklahoma. So it can be done.</p>
<p>LookingForward, I was asking why the fraternities or sorrorities themselves don’t close the chapters. </p>
<p>I’m a GDI. My oldest joined a sorrority and then left after her first year. She found the drunken parties to be boring and I quote, “totally lame.” I don’t think she’s a big drinker. We never kept it in the house and she didn’t grow up around a lot of adult drunkenness, so it does not seem “normal” to her. But, I don’t know. Maybe she is. Nobody really knows with kids these age.</p>
<p>The problem, imho, with these situations is that a kid does not have to be a “big drinker” to end up dead of an alcohol overdose. It can happen to anyone who drinks too much alcohol in too short a period of time. </p>
<p>So, even if your kid is not, maybe especially if your kid is not, a big drinker, they are still at a higher risk for alcohol overdose when they join these clubs.</p>
<p>^ Just coincidence my post followed yours.</p>
<p>The fraternities and sororities do close their own chapters. They also evaluate campus culture prior to re-opening those chapters (usually more than four years later, after all previous members have graduated) and avoid re-opening at schools where the hazing/partying culture is strong. I know my sorority has rescinded initial interest in expanding to a campus when they discovered the heavy party scene.</p>
<p>Any one of these incidents has the capability of forcing a national organization to shut their doors permanently. When incidents are minor or only a handful of members were involved without the approval or knowledge of the rest of the chapter, those members are suspended/expelled from the organization. We come down very hard on chapters for even minor violations.</p>
<p>There is nothing in any fraternity or sorority’s mission, values or purpose/creed/symphony that supports irresponsible alcohol use or hazing.</p>
<p>I don’t know what the answer is, I was in a national sorority at a very large state U and was the last class in 1984 that was “officially” hazed. All fun, stupid stuff with no alcohol involved, but after my year it was stopped, PERIOD. A couple of years later our brother frat got banned from campus for a drinking/hazing incident. The officers were legally charged and the frat kicked off campus… they have never come back. I think there are many positives to Greek life, and the bulk of my college drinking in fact happened with my dorm friends (most of them GDI), rather than my sorority sisters. In fact, I probably would have flunked out (due to too much partying with my dorm buddies) if not for the mandatory study hours and GPA requirements imposed by my sorority. All that said, I KNOW frats don’t run quite the same way and I think they have always had much less “supervision” from their national organizations than sororities. I feel strongly that sanctions should be severe and swift for anyone involved in these incidents. </p>
<p>And now I’m sending off my baby boy to college next year… whether or not he pledges, I am not stupid enough to think he is not going to drink. I read a great article recently that talked about teaching your kids HOW to drink. I know that sounds odd, but the point was that you aren’t born knowing there is a difference in chugging a large glass of beer and chugging a large glass of vodka. I believe I have taught my kids how to think for themselves, and not feel pressured to do things they don’t want to do, but information is a good thing nonetheless. So, we had that talk… which of course he thought was incredibly weird, but I’m hoping if he is ever in such a situation he will remember what I said and make a choice that hopefully won’t find us bringing him home in a coffin.</p>
<p>In addition to the lessons concerning alcohol content of beer vs whiskey, I suggest a trip to a near campus "college bar "if you live where a parent can take his underage child in. Friday night is usually particularly instructive. Let them see drunks. Bumping into people. Near or actual fights. The bathroom is usually particularly unpleasant.</p>
<p>This type lesson can be especially instructive about female drunks. It becomes shockingly obvious when the predator males start working the blitzed female girl.</p>
<p>I know that how you parent is not a guarantee of how the child will behave. But, I took the approach from the earliest years stressing that you are known by the company you keep, you are always responsible for your conduct and decisions even if “everyone is doing it” or it was a group idea and decision. As he got older, this message included more detail and explicit observations concerning “group think” behavior. Beginning in middle school I told him that he could invite people over to our house (with notice and us present) but that HE was responsible for the behavior of anyone he invited. He came to me one night and said that there were two guys that he had not invited who showed up at the door and he needed my assistance. I went to the door and they left.</p>
<p>Also, my approach through high school to activities that were rife with group think was not to fund them. A couple of examples are the limo to the prom and getting a room for the senior event (he was 18 by this point.) He did the group limo one year but never again after he announced that his share had been $60 out of his own money.</p>
<p>I know several parents who have approached Greek membership the same way. They set, in advance, the amount of their financial commitment for a semester of college, as I did. It did not include enough to pay for what Greek membership costs. If going Greek means a lot to the student, he or she can pay for it.</p>
<p>Perhaps I view banning things as somewhat pointless. I saw the stats for binge drinking and alcohol poisoning deaths and since the percentage of kids who go to college and go Greek is tiny in comparison to those who do not go to college or go Greek, the numbers indicate that college and Greek does not equal binge drinking and alcohol deaths. This is more an age and maturity issue than environment IMO.</p>
<p>Moreover, I have read that at college binge drinking is on the decline except for upper classwomen. I am not really aware of a lot of hazing deaths in recent times that make it to the media that do not include alcohol or drugs. I can see that barring interaction with freshmen at the frat/sor house or any Greek function could assist some freshmen in making an adjustment to college before deciding whether to go Greek. But, intoxication in freshman dorms is reported over and over even at schools that use that approach.</p>
<p>DS3 will be a freshman next year. We share a couple of beers from time to time. He would probably be interested in joining a frat. I pray that he have the wisdom to spot the predatory practices and the courage to say no. Otherwise, my umbrella would not be able to cover him.</p>
<p>@07dad… at the Sugar Bowl last year I took my 17 year old son down to Bourbon Street. Drunk UM and VT kids EVERYWHERE… his eyes as big as saucers. Sitting at a table in a bar a couple of very cute, highly intoxicated girls stopped to say hello. When they left the conversation (from mother to son) went like this…“you can do what you want in college, but please do not ever think you should bring home a girl who drinks her drink from a goldfish bowl hanging from a lanyard around her neck.” ;)</p>
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<p>You know the reason that 18 year olds act like children is that people continue to treat them like children. They are NOT children. They are adults and should be treated as such. They should NOT lack the maturity to understand the gravity of their actions.</p>
<p>If we treated adults like adults we would have a lot less of a problem with adults who act like children.</p>
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<p>I completely disagree. I think hazing happens way more than is reported. And, as has already been posted, it’s a sadistic, barbaric, harmful and useless practice.</p>
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<p>This is the common line that all pro-greeks pull out to justify its existence.
So, in other words, this is what you’re saying: please excuse that we’re a bunch of drunken idiotic louts because, on sober days, we do some charitable work.</p>
<p>Then just join a volunteer service organization and leave out all the frat boy stuff.
Problem solved.</p>
<p>I’m actually not pro or anti greek. What I am is anti hazing and anti abuse. I simply do not understand why the overseeing organizations the “councils” do not come in and immediately shut down any chapter who violates their code. It would put an end to this stuff.</p>
<p>The kids just want to be in the clubs. If the clubs vanish immediately? They will get the message.</p>
<p>" the numbers indicate that college and Greek does not equal binge drinking and alcohol deaths"</p>
<p>Data from Wechsler et al. indicate that fraternity membership is the single biggest risk factor for binge drinking. Four out of five fraternity members binge drink (which is almost double the national average for college students; it is only slightly lower for sorority members), and as I’ve previously demonstrated, that data is likely an underestimate. </p>
<p>It would be really easy for fraternities to end this. Ban drinking. Works well at the University of Oklahoma, and could elsewhere. Spend the time selling peppermint lollipops for the poor.</p>
<p>If the main interest of the greek organizations is to build men and women of character, then it only makes sense that they would close the chapters where the opposite is happening.</p>
<p>Wasn’t there some goofy article in the recent past about a study that said college drinkers were happiest? Colgate? It’s hard to track because so many studies rely on self-reporting.<br>
Patriot- this may sound hard, but there is no given that automatically treating college kids as adults is what it all hangs on. My kids don’t carry adult responsibilities, they are still dependent on us. If they are self-supporting, that’s another matter. Being X age and having a college job, paying for incidentals, living away from home and (we hope) successfully managing academics is admirable- but a soft transition period isn’t the real McCoy. We try as hard as we can to treat them with respect for the responsibilities they do hold and the decisions they make well- and wait to see the full picture emerge.</p>