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<p>And, the criminal liability ought to start right where it belongs: with the President and Trustees of colleges and universities that are more than happy to endorse and even market fraternties and sororities so that they can duck the expense of providing housing and social programming at their campuses. Start putting them behind bars.</p>
<p>No, I have not been threatened bodily harm. But many of the pledging activities, especially initiation is to remain completely secret, even if it is not technically hazing. I did nothing against my own will and never felt overly pressured to do something. I never sacrificed my sport, my extracurriculars, nor my grades for my fraternity and they didn’t expect me to do so. In fact, although ours didn’t, some fraternities on campus required pledges to attend mandatory study halls. My friends in those said that semester was their best for grades. That fraternity also ranks consistently near the top for GPA and always above the all-men’s average.</p>
<p>I agree that there are many fraternities out there that are not worth it and have very destructive, demoralizing, and dangerous pledging experiences. That’s why I think it’s great our school has deferred rush, and I would recommend to any incoming freshmen to wait a semester or two before pledging. Being in the fraternities that people in this thread are only saying good things about (good community service, great brotherhood, no hazing, great connections later, etc.) are very worthwhile experiences. It’s not a coincidence that nearly all of our U.S. presidents were members of fraternities.</p>
<p>“If my son made a choice to prioritize any social activity over his grades and/or good health, I’d damn sure pull his funding.”
Give me a break. Underlying assumption here is that all greek organizations are bad and all members are unhealthy and performing poorly academically. Yes, there are some of those. I actually know a few dropouts were NOt greeks. Imagine that.
M s and roommate pledged. I was not thrilled. They both worked hard and kept their grades up and did NOT take a lighter load.<br>
For those parents considering calling the school, I understand your concern. I would have the same feeling and, depending on the situation, might consider it. But it’s not to be taken lightly. Greek or no Greek, an ratting parent can make life miserable for the student. This happened to my friend who called the school (in high school) and other parents about some drinking behavior she discovered. Her daughter was shunned for the last two years of high school. Went on anti-depressants. And finally switched to a private to get away from the abuse. BTW, I would describe her relationship with her Mom as “chilly” at best. Kids can be nasty…and it’s not just Greeks.<br>
Lastly, the “all a…holes on campus are greeks” comment goes a long way in proving that this statement is wrong…the person who said this is clearly one himself.</p>
<p>I hope most parents are just venting here. Like so many things, there are some good and there bad. I did not blindly “let” (it needs to be in quote because she is over 18) my daughter join a sorority. I read up on every incident report on her school website and newspaper. I read books on sororities. I did all of that behind her back as soon as she told me she was considering join a sorority. I had no experience with sorority life. When she came home on her break I told her about my concerns and asked her view on drinking, hazing…and what she hoped to get out of the Greek life.</p>
<p>She ended up joining one of the top sororities at her school. They didn’t do anything crazy last spring, but there were a lot of mixers, which took up a lot of her time. Her sorority also happened to have one the highest average GPA. I was concerned about her living at the house this year because of possibility of a lot drama, partying and extra obligations. But those girls do genuienly like each other (they were hand picked), they probably were better behaved because they want to make sure they didn’t get in trouble (no drinking in the house, most of the time). I have been getting a lot fewer phone calls from my daughter this year because her “sisters” have become her support group. As big as her school is (13,000), she likes the fact that she knows people when she walking around the campus.</p>
<p>I had a lunch meeting yesterday with someone who runs a hedge fund that’s doing very well in this market. The guy graduated from MIT. He told he that his fondest memories were of his fraternity. I jokingly said the only award my daughter has ever received from her college is through her sorority. He told me not to knock it because when she is doing job interviews someday it will probably be one of the most important award because most people in the Greek life would know what that award is. </p>
<p>Greek life provides a important social/work network while they are in school and after graduation. My daughter’s sorority frequently gets emails from alums on job or internship opportunities. There is a library and cafeteria that most of them go to, they are places to see and be seen. They are automatically invited to certain parties.</p>
<p>Some of things I have mentioned above may seem shallow to many parents and many would like to think their kids are above that. Some of your kids may not even want what the Greek life has to offer. But for parents that have kids that want to participate, I wouldn’t be so quick to point out all the negatives of Greek life. It is a very good way of shutting down communication between you and your kids. I took the approach of being open minded, well informed, and ultimately let my daughter make her choice. At the end I think she made the right choice for herself.</p>
<p>“Wow. I am amazed to read, from more than one poster on this thread, that their S or D “took a light load” in a given semester to allow them to participate in rush and have the necessary time available to be hazed.
No one else seems to have commented on this, so perhaps others consider this a side issue?”</p>
<p>I am amazed by this. I went to a school with a pretty strong Greek presence, was active in a sorority and married someone who was active in a fraternity. The “hazing” (as it were) was totally light-hearted – scavenger hunts, things of that nature, mildly embarrassing situations (singing to fraternities), and nothing that would have interfered with schoolwork (any more than any other club or activity). We suspended activities around reading week and finals week since people were obviously stressed then, and aside from rush, you could just attend the weekly chapter meetings and do whatever other level of involvement you so desired and that was just fine. There are always idiots everywhere, it seems.</p>
<p>Marian: Your link to Hazing.Cornell.edu was invaluable. THANK YOU.</p>
<p>This is the first comprehensive school website I’ve seen, and I applaud Cornell for doing it. Lest you think hazing must be a bigger problem at Cornell than other campuses, I can assure you it is not. Cornell has faced the problem head-on, especially by creating a means to post anonymous reportings, which is key. But I still fear that frats will always “find a way,” i.e., develop new and even more subversive “traditions” that have yet to be identified by officials. It is the nature of the beast.</p>
<p>I repeat…if your son is considering joining a fraternity this spring or next fall, READ THIS WEBSITE. </p>
<p>Educate yourself. Do not chastize me for lumping all fraternities into this category…I’m NOT…I KNOW they are not all guilty of this behavior and that membership can be a very positive experience for your son during his college years…but clearly certain frats on certain campuses are violators of the first degree during their initiation periods. I can’t speak for sororities.</p>
<p>toneranger, Instead of being so defensive, try reading what I wrote before quoting me. This is what I said in my first post, </p>
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<p>If you think it’s reasonable for a student’s grades to suffer due to being a pledge, fine. But it’s hardly time to drag out the “give me a break” and virtual eye rolling when other parents say they will not support that. We are talking about higher education.</p>
<p>PUG -
I DON"T think it’s OK for grades to suffer. I didn’t say that. I DO think it’s wrong for parents to automatically assume that grades will suffer. You said you would pull funding - perhaps you meant AFTER grades went down…in which case we agree.<br>
I also disagree about the priority of social activities. Social activities can be great learning experiences. And college is much more than going to classes and taking tests.
And please don’t follow up with some statement about beer pongs and Otis the town drunk. The Greeks, fairly, have a reputation for drinking. No argument there. But there is more to these groups and members also get unfairly bashed on a regular basis. Like on this board.
I think the hardest question is what role a parent plays in this process. We can research. We can educate and warn. We can refuse to pay for the extra costs. Perhaps we can even pull funding if grades go down the tubes. But, IMO, it’s too much to think we can prohibit participating in these groups. I thinks it’s important to begin treating our sons and daughters as emerging adults. Advise and counsel? yes…plenty; police? no.<br>
And why restrict this discussion to greeks? There’s plenty of hazing going on in sports and in marching bands. Should parent automatically prohibit participation in those groups as well? Hey, if grades are horrible - yes - but as a matter of course, I just don’t see it.</p>
<p>It seems to me that the obvious solution is for universities to ban secrecy on the part of fraternities and sororities. Let the students and their parents understand up front what the initiation activities will be. It won’t damage esprit–there’s no secrecy (as far as I know) about what kids have to go through at the military academies, which has a similar purpose. Why should universities allow campus organizations to operate in secrecy in the first place?</p>
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<p>I am one of those posters who wrote that my son took a light load. I will expand on it and maybe it will be clearer. </p>
<p>My son pledged his first semester in college.</p>
<p>He took a *light load <a href=“13%20hours”>/I</a>, econ, govt.2, chemistry (and chem lab) and a philosophy course - all required for his major. He went into colleg with 27 hours earned through AP, so he can comfortably take 12 hours and graduate on time or early. He earned a 3.75 for the semester, getting a B in the philosophy course. No complaints there.</p>
<p>At the same time that he was pledging, where he was elected pledge class president, he was also beginning his sports career at the school, where he was named the “Rookie Captain” and practicing 5 days a week, so he was balancing school work, his sport, and pledgeship while learning some valuable leadership skills and earning the respect of his peers.</p>
<p>Do you think that’s a light load? I said “light load” because he only took 13 hours, but in hindsight, I think that is a heck of a lot heavier load than most kids take on…</p>
<p>Oh, and we fund his fraternity dues, GLADLY. He eats every meal at the house, spends what free time he has there, and he is surrounded by a great group of guys that he will be friends with for life. It is a bargain.</p>
<p>And, 3 semesters in, his grades haven’t suffered a bit. He and most of his pledge brothers have over 3.5 cumulative GPA’s with many having 4.0’s. Bunch of no good drunks - clearly…</p>
<p>“obvious solution”</p>
<p>And what problem is it that you are trying to solve? Hazing does build group solidarity. Maybe it is not necessary, but it helps. Kids opt to join those tight knit groups for a reason. Any kid who does not want to be involved can decide not to belong.</p>
<p>I think eliminating secrecy would solve a number of problems. First, it would discourage hazing. Second, it would allow pledges to understand what they are getting into. Third, it would allow colleges to actually know what is going on in campus organizations. What value, other than tradition, is served by maintaining the secrecy of initiation procedures?</p>
<p>The secrecy is part of the group exclusivity and bonding.</p>
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I think this responds to my post above, but was misplaced.
Sure, secrecy probably encourages those things, but it’s obviously not necessary for them, because plenty of groups with no secrecy achieve them. But this is a campus organization, often with facilities actually located on campus. I don’t see the value to the college of allowing this kind of secrecy, especially if it contributes to hazing, which it clearly does.</p>
<p>Parents should also be aware that plenty of non-Greek organizations, such as sports teams and bands, may have hazing traditions. There is even schoolwide hazing on some campuses – I was hazed at Bryn Mawr, or rather, I was criticized and isolated for refusing to participate in the “voluntary” hazing.</p>
<p>That’s an excellent point, Hanna, and one that many of the Greek detractors don’t like to think about. It seems to me that I recently read about some national public university had a marching band hazing that went very wrong.</p>
<p>Edited to add: I googled and found on just on page one that bands at Wisconsin, Florida A&M, and Southern University (Georgia) all had hazing/alcohol abuse incidents which resulted in suspensions and/or criminal arrests.</p>
<p>I agree with edad that the secrecy is part of the group exclusivity and bonding. It’s not going away any time soon in the MANY types of organizations that practice such rituals. You try and find the good, and reject the bad.</p>
<p>Even Phi Beta Kappa has a “secret” handshake.</p>
<p>I have not read most of this thread but I’m not surprised by the heated nature of it because this is about how the discussions go here in my home. DH defends the hazing events that went on in his frat and giggles like a school girl when discussing them! And I must admit, to this day, he is bonded with his frat brothers even more than he’s bonded with long term business partners with whom he’s never shaved unmentionable things, got tied to trees in the woods with or joined in peeing on the college president’s house.</p>
<p>How do we know are children are wondering into reasonable places when every year, some frat brothers somewhere, die? Many states have found the need to outlaw hazing for a reason. Yet the positives are also undeniable.</p>
<p>Can we all agree it’s reasonable for colleges to have serious guidelines?</p>
<p>The Marines use a much more extreme type of training using hazing type activity to make bonds that seem to last a lifetime. Maybe men are wired a little differently than women.</p>
<p>The Marine Corps is about excellence, not elitism.</p>