<p>zooser, you mention that this family will be visiting schools this week. Perhaps they’ll come home with their eyes opened a bit. I don’t see how anyone could sit through an informational session at a highly selective school and come out with the impression that a stellar SAT score will carry the day. Adcoms at every tough admit school we visited made the point that they’re looking for more.</p>
<p>The only thing that would really open eyes is to read on CC the results threads for any of the schools in question—fabulous GPA, astronomically high SAT scores, all sorts of interesting ECs…result=rejection.</p>
<p>And to read post after post that reads like that…you’d have to really be in denial not to scurry off and apply to more safeties.</p>
<p>If there is a school counselor, s/he might push for a safety. Even the lazier, do nothing ones I’ve encountered tend to come to life long enough to insist that a kid put down a safety school. The rude shock might come when that is the only school that accepts the kid. </p>
<p>If not, that is also the way to broach the subject of adding the failsafe, just in case, measure of a safety.</p>
<p>He sounds like a nice kid, Zoos. And unless there is something really significant that you inadvertently left out, there is no way in hell he is getting in to any of the listed schools.</p>
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<p>Actually, I think it is a GOOD thing that he doesn’t share their expectations, since that means he’s more likely to end up somewhere that he will enjoy. With a marching band. :)</p>
<p>I agree with all who said that the best thing you can do for these people is try to get them to hire an independent college counselor. That person will make sure that there are realistic choices on the list.</p>
<p>ZM: I’m pretty sure that in the NYC area using a college counselor is a lot more common than in my neck of the woods, especially among those with deep pockets. Could you frame that suggestion so it’s not really coming from you? Like “I know some people who used a college counselor last year and they said it was worth every penny. The parents are so busy & it really helped their child to focus and polish their essays and applications.” </p>
<p>That way you’ve helped them but the burden of enlightening them isn’t on you, so no threat to the friendship. AND the counselor will get to hear the son’s voice and opinion too.</p>
<p>Getting into a large school with that marching band is not that easy these days without a decent GPA. A lot of the state schools really give the stink eye to GPAs that are not up there.</p>
<p>University of Northern Iowa. Great marching band. Full pay Illinois resident friend of the family is there. Grades etc. were not unlike those of the student described here. Fortunately, the parents weren’t focused on “top” institutions. Student has been extremely happy. Maybe you can encourage the kid to look up some info about UNI. He might like being far far far from his crazed parents.</p>
<p>“Cal, it is so funny when you mention marching band. One branch of my family is all HS music teachers (in a state I will not name). In order to get a job as music teacher in that unnamed state, one must (apparently) be in marching band in college (I swear I am not making this up). So one of this family turned down an admit at UT-Austin, becuase while he was accepted, he tried out for the band (you do this in the admit process, I swear I am not making this up), and while he got into UT-Austin, he did not get into the band, so he went to LSU.”</p>
<p>Many instrumental music education curricula require participation in marching band in college. Band directors frequently spend half their time directing marching band, so it makes quite a bit of sense. Also, at UT, an admission into the school of music (where one would study as a music ed major) waives the preliminary audition into the marching band, so while you may not be making it up, you may be misinformed.</p>
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I bet you’re right about that. Very good point.</p>
<p>Since he’s in a public school, the GCs are as concerned (more so even) with student pregnancies, arrests, abuse, etc. as with college. The dad has even complained about that. Which is the perfect opening for suggesting a private person. I think they might look kindly on that suggestion. I’m not sure it would occur to them because, strangely enough, being public school parents, they’re not as much part of the frenzy as they might be otherwise, and having successfully navigated the process themselves they don’t necessarily realize what is missing. Dad is over 60 and mom is close to 60. Wonderful people. But not open to listening to the kids on big things. I’m having trouble explaining myself. They’re good-natured and loving people, but believe they can save their kids all sorts of stress by making the big decisions unilaterally. The reason I know about the son’s desire for a school with a marching band is that I’m grappling with the high school process for my 7th grader who plays two instruments well. The best academic fit for him is a school without an instrumental music program. Their so has been very adamant with me that we should compromise on a less specific academic program that allows my son to continue to participate in music.</p>
<p>Zoosermom, I would make some suggestions lightly and then leave it at that. It’s not a disaster if they learn the hard way. Not a life or death issue. </p>
<p>And I know what you are going through with your 7th grader. We’ve gone through the same many times. </p>
<p>My 8th grader was adamant that he wanted a school where he could play football. My SIL put her twins in a school where they could play basketball (they wouldn’t have had a chance in their public school or her first choice for them, a large Catholic all male school). My son’s close friend in HS is going to this school in the Bronx because they could not find a NYC public school for him with a football program. Academics is not the only thing in their lives.</p>
<p>Zooser…we had the same decision as you when we were choosing places to build our house. We chose the district with the OUTSTANDING music program…because we had two kids who were outstanding musicians. All the schools had academic coursework, but not all schools even had a decent music program. This was important to us. Of course…that’s a family decision that would be unique to each family.</p>
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<p>Is there a local youth orchestra program he could join? Unless he is specifically looking for a marching program, a community or local college youth music program plus private lessons might serve even <em>better</em> than a school-based music program.</p>
<p>Simply being a “large donor” will not tip the scales at most schools. Offer to build a building? Then you have a chance!</p>
<p>^ Depends on your definition of ‘large’. Most of the tippy-top schools pay attention if you’ve donated about 2 million, even though that is usually not enough to have a building named after you. There are no guarantees, of course, but there will be a significant boost in odds of acceptance.</p>
<p>My understanding is if an applicant is within a certain range, there is a price for each school, and it’s not in the millions. They would even take multiple year pledge rather than one lump sum. But I don’t think OP’s friend is within the range for either school.</p>
<p>Valedictorian son of great Long Island school here.
Full pay. Our EFC was ridiculously high. Was not applying for any financial aid.</p>
<p>Son had great SAT’s/ACTs. 4.0 unweighted GPA. 13 AP’s and one college credit class. Great leadership and EC’s.
Applied to 3 Ivy’s. Rejected at 2 and WL at 1. No surprise to us. Most applying have similar credentials and they can’t admit everyone. (and in our case LI, Jewish Male plays against acceptance as there are many applying)</p>
<p>Son applied to many other great schools and picked one with a good fit (and full ride) for himself.</p>
<p>All students need matches and safties, or at least safeties. The student the OP is talking about needs those more than most, given the schools he is considering.</p>
<p>(By the way, friends of our and kids have a son in college. Top student. Applied to Cornell- which seems to be the easiest Ivy to get into- had a brother attending at the time and a Mom that graduated from their. To everyone’s surprise, he was rejected!!!)</p>
<p>I used to think that being full pay has a better chance of admission. Now I think it is the opposite based on my kid’s result last year. Think about it, for two applicants with the same SAT, GPA, and other subjective stuff, one is full pay and the other is not, does not the AD officer think the ‘poorer’ kid overcame something? Is not that a ‘hook’? Please note this is only based on ONE sample size.</p>
<p>With top Ivys getting into the low 6% acceptance rate area (:eek:), that is a lot of headwinds for any kid applying.</p>
<p>D1 was a full pay applicant at Georgetown and University of Michigan (OOS). Her stats were a little low, but not out of the middle 50% range at either. Excellent ECs. Alumini at both (dad at GT, both parents/2 grandparents/1 great grandparent at U of M). Rejected at GT, waitlisted at U of M (as she calls it now, a “courtesy” waitlist – which my nephew, in state in Michigan, also got this year). Those parents need a college counselor… it is okay to apply to reach schools, but you can’t count on full pay/alumni status as enough of an admissions hook.</p>
<p>Zmom, I agree with Consolation. 2100 SAT’s would probably be about in the middle for most of the named schools. But the other applicants with SAT’s in that range are almost certainly going to have much better grades and extracurriculars. I believe that your friends’ son has zero chance of getting into any of the named schools, full pay or not, legacy or not, and if the father thinks otherwise he is basically delusional. Especially at a place like Amherst or Swarthmore; he’ll never get past a first reading. A lot of people just don’t seem to understand what acceptance rates of 15% or 10% or 6% really mean. Even if you are completely qualified – which this kid isn’t – it’s like rolling the dice. I remember kind of assuming all along that my son had a decent chance of getting into Yale: full pay, a double legacy (me and my father), 2230 SAT’s, 3.85 GPA, EIC of the literary magazine for two years and other extracurriculars, all his AP’s, and so on. And although he wasn’t in the same universe as a developmental admit, my father has probably contributed decent amounts of money to Yale for each of the last 40 or 50 years – certainly more money each year than he’s ever given my son, more’s the pity. </p>
<p>But my son never thought he had a chance, because from his school nobody had gotten in there in many years without a <em>lot</em> of extracurricular leadership positions, not just one. I’m not saying people had to have cured cancer, but close. And he was right; he didn’t even get on the waiting list. Now, as it turns out, he was actually somewhat relieved that he didn’t get in, because the University of Chicago was his first choice and he was afraid that if he’d gotten into Yale I would have pressured him to go, and he would have ended up being miserable in New Haven instead of overjoyed to be in Chicago (he goes there from Hyde Park just about every weekend). And he’s been very happy at the U of C, and has been as completely outstanding academically there as I’m sure he would have been at Yale (given that he’s way smarter than I am and I was Phi Beta Kappa, and it can’t be <em>that</em> much harder to succeed there now than it was then! Plus, he wouldn’t have had to meet as many math/science type requirements there as he has at the U of Chicago. And he’s much less of a procrastinator than I was at that age; I’ve certainly warned him enough not to follow my example!) </p>
<p>So it turned out that I didn’t really grasp how difficult it was to get in these places. </p>
<p>And that was three years ago. (My son works part time at the admissions office at the U of C, and thinks he would have trouble getting in now. The year he applied, the acceptance rate was around 25% if I remember correctly; now it’s a lot less.)</p>
<p>Anyway, if I was being unrealistic, your friends are being much more so. I’m not saying Vassar is as hard to get into as Yale, but I still think it’s out of reach for their son, and he needs to broaden his search. I hope you’re able to think of a way to get that point across to them without offending them; perhaps advising them to hire a private admissions counselor is the best way.</p>