<p>Interesting thread, which leads me to sort of the opposite question regarding a friend’s kid: For the super-selective schools (in this particular case – Harvard, Penn, MIT, Cal Tech, Harvey Mudd), does having an EFC of 0 hurt at all? Or do they have such huge endowments that they are truly need-blind? I’m a little worried that this kid doesn’t have a safety and hope that his financial situation won’t hurt things. I never considered that, as GR3 suggests, it might actually help!</p>
<p>The kid needs a safety no matter what – his income status is irrelevant. </p>
<p>None of those schools will view his income status unfavorably – but that does’t mean he’s going to be accepted. Additionally, because of his financial situation, there’s a possibility that he may be accepted to a school and find that he cannot afford to attend – the colleges meet “need” as determined by their own policies and formula, NOT the FAFSA EFC.</p>
<p>I think GR3 is mistaken. If there are factors that are evident in the application that show financial hardship, that may be viewed positively by the college – but at the same time the life circumstances very likely mean that the applicant is a weaker candidate overall. The low-income student probably attended public schools with less resources; is far less likely to have received extensive test prep; may have been limited as to EC’s because of limited finances, etc. So basically the low-income kid applying to Harvard might have far more going against him than going for him.</p>
<p>I don’t know the answer to snoozn’s question, but zooser, oh my, these poor people are in for such a rude awakening! </p>
<p>I wonder if down the road, when this thread has receded into the archives of CC, you could direct these folks to the Swarthmore and Amherst boards on CC so they can see the admitted/rejected students threads (complete with stats) before it’s too late. At our high school, a feeder with a ton of full pays and a few development-type kids, even mega-wealthy kids with a lot of C’s were not getting into those schools, and certainly not in the absence of spectacular EC’s that showed tremendous intellectual passion and promise. I know a couple of terrific kids who ended up at top '20’s, one with merit money, who were rejected by Vassar recently. And does anyone remember andison from several years ago – the brilliant, accomplished, phenomenally well-qualified urban East coast kid who ended up taking a gap year because he was rejected at all of his match and reach schools including Swat? There is no way that Swat rejected this kid because he needed FA in order to accept a kid with grades in their lowest 10% and no EC’s because he could pay the tuition. </p>
<p>But, of course, there is no way you can say this to these parents, and they would get beaten up pretty severely if they were to post a chances query here. But maybe if a cast of a thousand strangers started screaming Love Your Safety over and over, they would get the point. So I’d second the suggestion of a college counselor and add the suggestion of getting them to cc. I feel so bad for the kid who, instead of having the experience of selecting appropriate colleges which would love to have him, is going to face a ton of rejection from colleges that don’t accept students with his stats.</p>
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<p>I believe ALL of these schools are need blind for admissions (unless the student is an international student). That being the case, financial need is no considered in the application process. In other words, the admissions folks won’t KNOW your financial need so your EFC won’t matter.</p>
<p>GR3, the fact of the matter is that kids with very low EFCs are a tiny minority in the applicant pool for the top schools. Yes, they do get a tip for being economically challenged and with that may have other challenges as well, such as being a first generation college student, and experiences that are not what those in upper income brackets are as likely to have. </p>
<p>On a board like this one, we tend to see a lot of such kids, but in reality there are not many of them at all, and very few make it into the top schools. Those who do are the lucky ones with some adult support and/or so self motivated that they can navigate the college choices themselves. The reason that the % of this group of students remains constant is because colleges like HPY et al tend have a goal as to about how many of these kids they want and adjust their standard for kids from such backgrounds accordingly.</p>
<p>Not to say there are not a bunch of low income kids who get in because they truly are the best of the best. There are. But it’s not like there is an overwhelming number of them. </p>
<p>Though the application does not outright ask if someone is economically deprived, this sort of thing is often noted by the guidance counselor, and the essays often discuss the challenges these kids have. Also they will check off the financial aid box and their school and addresses are give aways. The admissions officers at certain school are on the look out for these cases.</p>
<p>My son’s school works with a program that targets middle school kids who are doing well in school and offers them scholarships to go to this independent school. Most of these kids struggle in this environment. In all of my years in dealing with these school, I’ve yet to meet any kids who were the top of the top students when they came from these background, and they often needed lighter academic loads. It makes sense as they did not have the preparation and many don’t have the home support for taking on such an academic load. Those kids in that category who can perform very well do get a tag on their college apps for extra consideration. Most of them do not make the level for the top schools, though they do get into fine colleges. It’s not like there are trainloads of them heading to Harvard due to a pass that is given to them. Not at all.</p>
<p>But yes, kids who have the proverbial silver spoon, are assessed with that in mind at the highly selective schools. If the app smells like too much has been bought for the kid, it will not help him in admissions. Such kids have to show how they made great use of the great resources they were lucky enough to have.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse, thanks for the in depth explanation. I feel a bit more positive about this kid’s chances now. I had suggested picking a safety to both him and his mom (as had my daughter – this is her bf, actually!) But they’ve been going through an extremely rough time and for whatever reason, a safety was never applied to. </p>
<p>He goes to a school (same as my d) that has no AP/IB/honors, but he has been taking all his math and foreign language classes at the local U (school district pays for it) since he was a freshman. Perfect ACT, founder/leader of at least one school club and one outside EC he’s been heavily involved in for years, plus a good bit of environmental conservation work. </p>
<p>Sometimes I look at the stats for Ivy hopefuls on cc (two dozen AP’s! cpt of 4 sports! winner of 20 science/math/debate/etc. competitions!) and despair a bit. But this kid is really the smartest person I know and I hope the colleges will look at the whole picture. I’m almost as nervous about his decisions as I am about my daughters (after all, she does have a safety!) and am keeping my fingers crossed for good news on pi day (Mar 14) since MIT is his top choice.</p>
<p>As far as getting in, but not being able to afford it, I thought most of the top schools guaranteed to meet full need.</p>
<p>And just so I don’t completely sidetrack the thread, I do feel for the OP and I think your best option (if recommending a pro counselor doesn’t work) is to talk to the kid directly and get him excited about big state schools with great marching bands.</p>
<p>Realize also the mindset of the admissions officer at these (tippy) top schools like HYPSM. They never have a shortage of highly qualified kids of wealthy educated parents, students of good private or elite public schools, sending in polished applications that were looked over by counselors, parents and others. Essays were probably worked on carefully. The teacher and counselor recommendations were crafted with care. The main task with such applications is to choose the best applicants who will fit the college and who are most likely to matriculate and continue to do well in college. As admissions officer, there is no great satisfaction in performing that task. </p>
<p>Now consider a student from a relatively impoverished background and a relatively unknown school, with letters of recommendation that are not too rich in detail and an application that might be a little ‘rough around the edges’. Suppose this student has great grades, high SAT scores, and some other extra factor that makes the application stand out to the admissions officer. This is a diamond in the rough, someone whose life could be transformed by acceptance and attendance at the elite college. This is something to get excited about! So who cares if the kid has an EFC of $0. That is what they have financial aid for.</p>
<p>I am sorry for not reading 5 pages of this thread.<br>
IMO, SAT 2100+ is not that stellar, although it is very good. Some programs do not consider applicants below 2300+ unless they have a hook. Combo of 2100 + lower GPA is not going to fly high. You need safety. Again, it is my opinion. My D. had 2100+ and did not consider it good enough for where she was applying. Her ACT was better and it worked in combo with perfect GPA and being ranked #1 at her private HS and tons of EC’s. However, it has worked only 50% (meanning, she did not get into 50% of places that she has applied). In addition, she did not apply to the most selective programs at all. We have done huge research, created very complicated spreadsheet to pick programs for her based on many criteria, including her stats and her personal interests and priorities. Picking up school based strictly on prestige might backfire badly. D. is graduating from college in May, our diligent approach has worked for her. I wish OP’s friend the best, but I would advise to spend more time researching schools, visit many, talk to current student and faculty, email admission in case of questions or even departments of interest at certain schools. And do it only if kid allowed you to do so. Some want to be doing everything themselves.</p>
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I don’t believe that. Do you have any corroboration for that “fact”?</p>
<p>(That doesn’t mean that I don’t think the subject of the thread doesn’t need a safety, of course he does.)</p>
<p>The OP still has a problem… parents whose kids are a legacy often have blinders about their kid’s chances. They think the stats apply to everyone else, and give more weight to legacy than they should.</p>
<p>Does your high school have a decent college counselor? The one at ours would definitely break this news to the parents and help them find some safeties.</p>
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<p>Decent, but not great. The problem is that the dad won’t listen to anyone saying things that he doesn’t want to hear. I mentioned last year that I was glad to have a long gap between children 2 and 3 so as to not have to deal with the college process for a while becasue I don’t enjoy it. He sniffed at me a little bit (he is a nice guy so I’m not doing well with this description) and said that he enjoyed it greatly because he understood it in such depth. I think that might have been true 35 years ago, but not now. I am definitely going to suggest a private counselor because their public school doesn’t have many applicants like their son. For a bunch of reasons! Great advice here and thanks for listening. As you might have guessed, I feel a strong affinity for their son because he reminds me so much of my own son. God help me in five years.</p>
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Some programs do not consider applicants below 2300+ unless they have a hook. </p>
<p>I don’t believe that. Do you have any corroboration for that “fact”?</p>
<p>-Yes, if you read my previous post. i do not know statistics, but I have used example of my D. (i bet there are many just like her). her acceptance was 50%. Some programs that she has applied had over 1000 applicants for about 15 spots. There is statistics (which i did not researched as of now) that Princeton accepted about 17% of valedictorians who apply there in some years, as another unchecked example. but as I have mentioned, D. did not even apply to the most selective programs. </p>
<p>Another caution, do not rely too much on counselors. They have very many kids, even if there are about 35 in graduating class, 35 is many more than 1. There is so much available and could be inquired by using ‘contact us’ links at websites. Adcoms are happy to help, it is their job.</p>
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<p>It is true to the extent that for top schools with acceptance rate in single digit the acceptance rate of SAT1 score > 2300 hovers around 25%.</p>
<p>This pushes the acceptance rate for students with less than 2100 to less than 5%.</p>
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<p>Could you please explain the second statistic. The first is very easy to understand…but how did you determine that <2100SAT is 5%?</p>
<p>^My son’s acceptances were 50% with lower SAT scores. One person is an anecdote. I’ve seen absolutely no sign that 2300 is a cut off. And I’ve seen and heard plenty of admissions officers say that if there is a cut off it’s MUCH lower - more like 700 for verbal and math. I think the kids with SAT scores over 2300 probably dot their i’s and cross their t’s more than other kids. They may well have slightly better GPA’s too.</p>
<p>Hey POIH, I noticed you are at 2360. Forty more posts and you’ll be at a magic 2400!</p>
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<p>Not true. Just CC myth and a misunderstanding of reported stats.</p>
<p>Take Harvard. Common data set shows:</p>
<p>Percentiles 25%, 75%
SAT Critical Reading 690 800
SAT Math 700 780
SAT Writing 690 790</p>
<p>That means that 75% of students have above 690 on any one test. 25% of students have above 780 on any given test. That does NOT mean that 75% have above 690 on all three It is very likely that a significant percentage of students have scores in the 600-700 range on one test --but in higher ranges on the others. (Far more likely than any single student who is in the bottom 25th percentile on all 3).</p>
<p>A student who has upper 25% scores on all 3 tests would have a score of 2370.</p>
<p>A student could have a combine score of 2080 and still be in the top 75%. You can probably look at those numbers and extrapolate an average score of about 2220 (740 on each test, which is the midway point for the middle score range). </p>
<p>Obviously that is still a very high score – but it also is pretty clear that 2300 is not a “cutoff” score by in any means. It is quite possible that 75% of Harvard admits probably have combined scores of over 2200 – but 2200 is 100 points less than 2300. </p>
<p>It is very likely that the majority of the students who have scores in the bottom quartile on any one test have higher scores on the other 2 – and given that the tests top out at 800 the tail end of the distribution is going to be longer than the top end. (That is, of the 25% who had CR score of 800, we know that they all had exactly 800; its not possible to have a score of 810. But of the 25% who had scores below 690… we can safely assume that some had scores significantly below that (650? 620?) – but we don’t know how low. But my point is that the bottom 25% tail is mathematically going to bring the actual median (50% score) down lower than the 740 I extrapolated above, but the CDS doesn’t give us enough info to figure that out. But if it were 720 rather than 740, then you would have a median score of 2160 instead of 2220. </p>
<p>That doesn’t negate the reality that test scores are very important – and 2100 is simply not going to impress Harvard by any means. My only point is that the 2300 figure is inflated. </p>
<p>But obviously even if that line was 2100, that’s not going to help the kid with mediocre grades and no EC’s. The lower you go on the score distribution, the higher the likelihood that the applicant has one or more stand-out qualities that compensate for weaker test scores.</p>
<p>zoosermom, I’m waiting to hear if your friends take calmom’s perfect suggestion of a private counselor to heart. In the meantime, this bit of information about your friends</p>
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<p>might be a useful lever. Parents with a sense of noblesse oblige (and I mean that in a complimentary way), of being part of the community, of wanting their child not to get swallowed up by the system. There’s something there, but I can’t figure out how to deploy it. </p>
<p>If they consider the NY Times authoritative, a carefully chosen series of articles from “The Choice” blog might get past their defenses. Also, that lovely NYT piece posted this past year about the dad realizing with grace that his son was not going to follow in the father’s Ivy footsteps. </p>
<p>Can you use some type of reverse psychology to make them read “The Gatekeepers”? Perhaps shaking your head at how insane people at pricey private high schools are about college admissions, and your friends have got to read this book for giggles.</p>
<p>I’m sure everyone is aware of these very similar threads
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1090167-buying-your-way-into-college.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1090167-buying-your-way-into-college.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/1091909-low-incomers-disadvantage-when-applying-hypsm.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/1091909-low-incomers-disadvantage-when-applying-hypsm.html</a></p>
<p>Years ago a friend of mine passed on a stack of college admissions related guides she no longer needed. I found them very helpful. Do you have one you could let this dad help you recycle that has GPA and SAT ranges laid out very clearly? It’s nice if another family can make use of it before the information is out of date. He’d probably flip through it and hone in on at least a school or two. I’m not trying to recommend any particular guide with stats, but maybe someone else here can? I do know one book formatted this way was an old edition of The Princeton Review’s America’s Best Value Colleges. Each school had a few pages devoted to it, with very noticeable gray boxes at the side containing key information such as GPA and SAT score ranges. </p>
<p>Is the dad a numbers guy? Would this be a way he’d take in the information?</p>