I would not permit a minor to go to a protest unless with a responsible adult I trusted. If a Chaperoned church group, youth group , school group were going and I knew the adults attending, I would permit.
But, the thing about all of these demos, what happened to the COVID19 Social Distancing rules. No 6 ft distances. There. Lots of yelling. I guess we’ll see what happens in the next 2 weeks with those numbers. Good to see a lot of face masks, but too often not in place.
I work with data for a living, and my entire job is to look at it more closely than others do and in doing so, make better decisions than others. While I am not a social scientist, I can apply my statistical tools to that data as well.
The data behind racism against black people paints a complex picture. Let’s ignore the disparate arrest history for a moment. After arrest, there is clear evidence of racism when it comes to sentencing blacks vs whites for the same type of crime, particularly drug crimes, both in terms of guilty verdicts and in lengths of sentences. So to completely ignore racism when it comes to the criminal justice system is being either naive or willfully ignorant.
However, when it comes to the very specific issue of whether blacks are shot by police more often than expected, the situation actually reverses itself. Given the disparate rate of crimes committed by race, it is true that blacks are shot by police less often than expected. I came to this conclusion by looking at the data closely several years ago, and this was later confirmed by a study by Roland Fryer, a controversial black Harvard economist. In the same study, Roland also found that non-lethal force was used considerably more often against black suspects. While his study has been severly criticized for going against the commonly accepted premise, its central conclusions remain intact. And as other posters have shown, the data is out there. But most people will instantly recoil against reading something that goes against their existing biases.
I want to conclude with three points.
@EconPop
I’m sorry if something I said made you upset. No one is asking you to defend your grief, or even suggesting that what happened to Mr. Floyd wasn’t a terrible tragedy. There was, I thought, an invitation to discuss what might or might not be the causes of tragedies like this. Someone suggested that the data was clear that the police use a disproportionate amount of lethal force against african americans, and I was pointing out that the data isn’t clear. As you might guess, for my own particular reasons I’m sensitive to allegations that I think wrongfully slander law enforcement as racist or corrupt. But I try to make my reponses respectful, meaningful, and measured.
If it’s your goal to shut down the participation in this discussion that might bring in facts or statistics that disrupt the narrative you have about law enforcement, I will comply. It will create an echo chamber, and you won’t understand why people might disagree with you, but maybe that’s not so important.
I’ll just step out of this conversation at this point, without hard feelings.
Fryer’s research doesn’t go unchallenged, even amongst Harvard scholars.
https://scholar.harvard.edu/jfeldman/blog/roland-fryer-wrong-there-racial-bias-shootings-police
@hebegebe - If possible, could you link to studies showing disparate sentencing by race for the same crime? As you probably know, one of the many factors that a judge can take into consideration at sentencing is history of prior convictions. These data are not easy to come by, as during the trial phase, evidence of prior crimes is almost never admissible. Priors also constitute an important factor at the plea bargaining stage, which of course is how most criminal prosecutions are terminated, but they are available to judges in the sentencing memoranda (which are typically confidential). Police, and by extension district attorneys, also generally have access to juvenile records. I would be curious to see how the authors of the studies you have seen adjust for these input variables.
Also, use of non-lethal force will be correlated with propensity to resist arrest violently. What data are the study authors looking at in order to model this propensity? Should we really be so quick to assume that there are no systematic differences by race in propensity to resist arrest violently? (Common sense would suggest that the internalization of a narrative that police are murderers out to get you because of your particular race might just increase that propensity.)
@Boxcar101 , it is not my goal to “shut down” the conversation. It is my goal to have a meaningful conversation.
I’ve had thousands of these type of conversations. I’ve seen many be sidetracked from discussing a clear and present injustice, to justifying the malignant act, to blaming the victim, to saying, yes, that “statistics prove” this or that.
I’m not saying every person who deflects the conversation in that manner does so with ill intent. What I’m saying is that it seems to be a natural tendency for some people to not address the main topic of how historical systemic injustice is the root cause of what happened to George Floyd and tens (or hundreds) of thousands of other people like him over the decades.
You and others may feel you are honestly and impartially presenting statistics. Maybe you honestly feel that way. But to those of us who have danced this dance for decades, it looks like the same game of deflect and distract that has been used from before my father’s father was born.
And whenever someone like me speaks up about it, we are accused of looking for an echo chamber, or trying to stifle honest conversation, or being unwilling to embrace opposing views that “prove” what I feel or know is wrong. I’m smiling and chuckling right now typing this, because it seems sort of absurd. First we have to defend our grief. Then I have to defend why I have to defend my grief. Then we have to defend why we don’t want to have to defend our previous defense.
But I get it. As black people in America, we have lived an existence non-minorities have not. We are forced to think about things like this constantly, day in day out, morning noon and night some days. Whites very rarely have to consider how racism negative affects them. This is not a criticism or indictment – just a statement of fact. Many times, before an honest discussion of racism can be had between blacks and whites, the blacks have to explain reams of things to whites so whites can understand how pervasive and demoralizing a lifetime of this has been – I’m not looking for anything here, just stating facts. Sometimes, blacks don’t want to have that elementary discussion for the 100th time, to build up someone’s knowledge of the situation to the point where a meaningful discussion can take place. Sometimes, it is comforting to have a gentle conversation with others who already understand our experiences, no matter the other person’s race. This is not about blacks speaking to whites, it’s about people speaking to other people who understand their experiences. It’s like women trying to have a discussion about the tribulations and joys of childbirth constantly being interrupted by men telling them what it’s like to give birth to a baby.
I’m not looking for an echo chamber. I’m not looking to shut out anyone who is honestly trying to contribute and understand. But I also don’t want to have to consistently tolerate those who play games, because I know those deflections and distractions will chase away people who see it for what it is and stop participating in the discussion.
I’ve read that piece before. Justin Feldman was a graduate student at Harvard at the time. He is now an assistant professor at NYU. It doesn’t mean that his views should not be considered, but calling him a “Harvard scholar” is a stretch.
People’s reaction to Fryer’s conclusion is largely determined by preconceived biases. If your preconceived bias is that “excessive shooting is something that must be proven”, then what Fryer is saying is that he couldn’t prove that excessive shooting occurs.
But if your preconceived bias is that “excessive shooting is something that must be DISproven”, then you can find myriad additional checks that Freyer didn’t make.
If I recall correctly, blacks are shot by police at a rate 2.4x higher relative to their population. A person’s immediate conclusion might be that is racial discrimination. But police are brought into situations where there is crime, which happens at different rates according to income, race, age, and sex. You certainly don’t expect Asian grandmothers to be shot by police as often as young males (of any race). So a nuanced understanding requires estimating the number of potentially police encounters that happens according to different groups and then seeing if the number of shootings is higher or lower than expected.
What’s next? My family had a heated conversation about this at dinner last night.
We were just throwing around ideas.
Is it that police forces are unionized that makes it so difficult to reprimand/fire officers who shouldn’t be there?
Should requirements to be an officer be higher and pay also?
It is a demanding and stressful profession- no doubt. Should they have more vacation time? Ability to cycle through various jobs within the force? More mental health check ins?
How do we break through the blue code?
Obviously, certain police methods, aka the chockhold, should be outlawed.
But I also don’t want officers who are afraid to do their jobs, putting themselves and others in greater danger.
Yesterday in Philly I saw images of police interactions with the community that really touched my heart.
I also saw a small group of officers posing with the controversial Rizzo statue.
I wish I could just wave a magic wand.
@EconPop At the very least we can agree that what happened to Mr. Floyd was a clear and unacceptable injustice - the kind that shocks the conscious.
My daughter was in the one in Chicago a few days ago with some friends. She has done peaceful protests before in our city. It appears that most if not all the people there were wearing masks. She actually doubled up a surgical mask with a cloth mask over it.
My niece was in one in Detroit. Again masks everywhere and at both they were handing out masks and water.
It will be interesting in a few weeks if we see a spike in the age groups with Corona virus. If not… Going back to college shouldn’t be a problem (not trying to merge 2 threads here… Lol)
I’m probably not going to say this right but I’m going to try anyway. Throwing out studies and statistics doesn’t change anything for George Floyd, his family, his friends, his community and all the people who worry that they, or their child, could be the next George. But more importantly, it doesn’t change the grief and fear. To me, it also feels like an attempt to dismiss the experience of countless Americans.
I think @EconPop’s birth analogy is a good one. When my baby died years ago, I had a number of people I considered close friends but not parents themselves tell me I could have another one, that at least I didn’t get too attached because he was so young, and countless people telling me statistics that it was a freak thing and wouldn’t happen again. Those comments were painful and hurtful. I just needed someone to hold me, grieve with me, and be present. Not try to diminish my child and my experience.
Arguing statistics feels totally unhelpful to me in this thread. This post was started, I think, because the OP was hurting. Maybe this can be the post where we all come together and support each other as human beings.
Sending virtual hugs and prayers to everyone who needs it today. Peace.
So what’s next?
Not sure. No question the issues are out there. No one can hide from that fact anymore.
So I think I posted my shul was part of a multicultural religious walk in Bronzeville in Chicago https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-protest-george-floyd-bright-star-church-police/6228004/.
All religions coming together to try to understand. To me this is an important step in the right direction.
Next is just look at the protestors (not rioters /looters).
At least in Chicago and other areas like New York etc it appears to me that “maybe” a majority of the crowd appears to be young and white. I am talking like 18-35.
Is this the generation that actually makes change happen? I know my daughter, my niece and their friends are passionate about this and many other things that have to do with social justice and inequality.
My generation… Probably not.
We talk a good game but not much has been done.
So after all this passion with the marches subsides. Then what?
So what’s next?
Unlike the last round of protests over systemic injustice, many more companies are taking a firm, unbending stand on the subject this time around. However, the statement released by Ben & Jerry’s might be the most firm, undiluted statement yet by a company.
Wow. There is no ambiguity at all in that message. It is loud and clear.
I do hope those that are grieving find their peace. Certainly in my area, there is so much intermingling of races that the mutual respect that has been developed for non-racial reasons shows in times like this.
I think this thread has been relatively tame and respectful compared to how it could have turned out. Probably good not being in the Parent Forum. LOL
Another thought about the case, and how it could potentially change us for the better… @MWolf touched on this earlier…
The defense can clearly use the finding of drugs in Floyd’s system to their advantage. And 20 years ago, this alone may have been enough. But given the opioid epidemic, and how everyone has been touched by now, including potential jurors in Minnesota, I think there is a risk this could be overplayed.
A very recent Morning Consult poll finds that 58% of Americans want the military deployed to quell the riots.
Honestly, I do not see how these protests are going to lead to improved race relations, I just do not. Lower-SES and POC will pay the price of continued unrest and the fallout from it, as usual.
Embedded in this observation is a profound point in my opinion. On the one hand, police are not disproportionately targeting or killing blacks, armed or unarmed (although there are of course abuses and mistakes made with regard to suspects of any race). The statistics bear this out, if one is willing to examine them with honesty.
However, on the other hand, as I have said many times on here, I know a number of police officers for decades, some in my immediate and extended family, who have served in racially diverse and violent areas. So, I have seen this from the inside, as it were. If you really want to see systematic mistreatment of blacks in particular, look to what the police are not doing, rather than what they are. Believe me, most of these guys would love to help out anyone in danger, regardless of race, but the risks of enforcement in minority neighborhoods are just too great.
No one here is peddling seeds of divisions and if you want an honest, civil discussion, then you need to stop making baseless allegations against other posters.
I want to give a short general history lesson of my own family to make a point about what has to be overcome being an African-American in America, because I believe people take for granted how African-Americans have been harmed as a people.
Both sides of my family are descendants of slaves and my great-grandparents were in the 1st or 2nd generation to be born free into sharecropping families in Mississippi and were not taught how to read or write past a 2nd grade education (One Great-Grandfather named all males with initials for names due to his inability to read and write). Both of my Grandfathers and a Grandmother were born into sharecropper families and eventually left for large urban areas despite little education opportunities growing up in Mississippi and many systematic horrors (Jim Crow in the south and Redlining policies once they moved into cities that limited housing opportunities).
My parents were the 1st generation to complete high school (my father completed college) and were raised in the Civil Rights era (still dealt with Redlining polices) I grew up in a large inner city without the everyday presence of my father in a community with aggressive policing policies that was 100% minority. It is 2020 and my kids generation are the 1st generation in my family to be raised in a multicultural environment, and without many of the handicaps (but there are still more subtle handicaps).
I have been followed in stores without cause more times than I can count, thrown on the ground, handcuffed and placed in a squad car for an hour before being released, and was stopped by police on a fairly regular basis as a teenager. I have lost a cousin who had a high speed chase with police (assumed he ran because he had small amount of weed in the car) when he ran into a light pole. That cousin had a deep fear of the police because his Father (my Uncle) was badly beaten by the police after a domestic disturbance when he was 7 years old.
I have talked on CC in the past about how education was the way out for my immediate family, but it has taken generations after slavery of fighting systems geared against my family to reach this point. African-Americans have spent hundreds of years as property, and have spent most of the last 155 years treated as inferior while being programmed to believe they were inferior. These protests are about getting justice for George Floyd, but I hope that they also fight against systematic injustices that have helped created the multi-generational poverty that ties to the murder rates that @Boxcar101 shared in his earlier post.
IMO there is a systemic issue in law enforcement, in addition to systemic racism. I see parallels to the Catholic Church scandal, that allowed pedophile priests to just continue on, knowing that they were violating children. Reprimand, retrain, and then put them back out there, look away and carry on.
There are bad people in all professions, in all segments of society. Unfortunately, bad cops have authority and weapons. When bad cops are not stopped, they are enabled. Police policing police does not work, any more than priests policing priests worked. DAs work closely with police, rely heavily on them. Objectivity is clouded.
IMO, there needs to be a change in the system, so that any time someone dies at the hands of law enforcement, an independent, outside investigation is automatically triggered.
eta: Not to say this is all of the problem or all of the solution, but it is part of the problem and a potential solution to that part of the problem.