The thought of this thoughtful thread being locked saddens me.
This was recently stickied on the front page of College Confidential. I was very surprised yet thankful to see those words.
I usually X out those stickied statements from CC, but I left that one up. I want to be continually reminded of College Confidential’s commitment to racial justice and equality.
I am one that does not run from the statistics, but we also must consider the “cause and effect” of policies that have affected African-American communities. Closing the socio-economic divide and providing equal access to educational opportunities would go a long way towards lowering violent crime statistics. I have also talked about what African Americans have to focus on around Black men doing more to support our families and communities in general (Black women have been carrying our families). But this is not about blame for me. This is about doing things that help our society “evolve” past our differences (not political differences, but being more empathetic towards the challenges that are faced by anyone with struggles and to be kind to one another).
Now that the other 3 officers at the scene have been charged with aiding and abetting second-degree murder, I am not sure what happens next for the officers. How will the Minnesota judicial system find a “fair and impartial” jury if this case goes to trail? How long would it take to reach a potential trial? Will these cases go to trial?
Fair maybe impartial? That to me is the tough one. Any honest person can’t say they don’t have an opinion on this case. Can’t really say you don’t know the facts or the story. Only takes 1 person to get this case dropped and not convicted (my understanding at least). One can’t say they don’t understand the aftermath of this death. I am not a lawyer but seems to me to get a conviction the judge would have to overturn the verdict based on the history with these cases.
I am sad that I actually wrote that but this might be the reality.
You’re not wrong to fear that outcome, @Knowsstuff . We only have to look back a short 4 years to be reminded of how likely it is that the Minneapolis Murderers will not be convicted.
On October 31, 2016 the policeman who murdered Walter Scott was not found guilty when a South Carolina jury deadlocked. This occurred despite cell phone video evidence. Not to mention the original “I Can’t Breath” murder in 2015 in NY where a grand jury decided to not indict the officers for murdering Derrick Garner. They did not even lose their jobs. And again, there is video evidence for that one, too.
Not only do I think it’s possible that a Minnesota jury might end in deadlock, I fully expect that result. In this thread alone, we have people who want to blame George Floyd for his own death. We have people who want to blame the witnesses for not forcibly attacking four armed policemen and saving George Floyd, while also saying it is not the full fault of any of the four policemen. I think it will be impossible to find 12 jurors in Minnesota and not have at least one of them agree with those people who blame George Floyd and the witnesses. Or maybe that future jurist will acknowledge that George Floyd was murdered but not agree that a white policeman should be imprisoned for murdering a black citizen.
This article discusses why it is difficult to convict police officers of wrong-doing.
“It’s difficult to convict a police officer anywhere, though they did just convict a police officer in Minnesota,” Friedberg said, referring to Mohamed Noor, the Minneapolis cop convicted last year of third-degree murder and manslaughter in the death of Justine Damond. “I think juries probably give a real presumption of innocence to police officers. Police officers generally do not have criminal records, which makes it harder to win for a defendant.
“Everybody’s supposed to be presumed innocent, but that’s a fiction. Jurors don’t walk into the courtroom, look at the defendant and say, ‘I bet he didn’t do it,’ which is essentially what they’re supposed to say. Police officers do generally get the benefit (of the doubt). And they are entitled to use some degree of force in restraining the person they’re arresting. And there’s a question of when they go too far, which is a lot different than someone who isn’t allowed to use any force at all.”
Added Gaertner: “You need to prove the use of force was unreasonable. That may sound pretty straightforward and not that high of a standard, but in fact it’s a high standard…It’s hard to look back and say, ‘No, that’s not reasonable.’ We weren’t there. Our life wasn’t threatened. For a jury to say that was not reasonable can be a tough standard for the prosecutor to meet.”
Do you think anything would be different had the police officers been charged quickly? Would it have exploded as it did? Would it be more likely they’d be able to find impartial jurors?
There is so much information still to come out about this case. Some will favor the prosecution, and some will favor the defendants.
There are plenty of people that could serve as impartial jurors. But is that what either side ever wants? Both sides will believe the facts are on their side, but never hurts to have an insurance policy of an emotionally sympathetic jury.
Right now, most of the stuff is one-sided. And I understand. It’s too close to the horrific event to have a lot of these conversations. Many are still grieving.
But ultimately, questions will need to be answered. How often is this maneuver used? How often is it fatal?
What will the prosecution say when the autopsy results are brought up? Floyd had a level of fentanyl in his system that is known to cause severe respiratory depression. But it’s risky for the defense to even bring that up.
Lots of interesting directions this case could go.
For Floyd’s family, they understandably want the officers to be held accountable. And maybe that is the best outcome since they are the victims… But I don’t think that ultimately benefits the most people.
Yes, please!
@EconPop and @ChangeTheGame Thank you for your informative and thought provoking posts.
@CheddarcheeseMN Yes, I do find it odd that no one has asked about the bystanders filming. Perhaps they had the biggest potential to stop this murder. I just don’t have sympathy with someone filming when a crime is being committed vs. intervening. For me, it’s about being a witness. It’s really against my grain to watch someone being attacked without acting. I can look back on numerous examples in my life.
Here’s an interesting article from the World Economic forum on the positive results of interference in crime.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/bystander-effect-is-myth-urban-violence-psychological-study/
Have also taught my kids to stand up for victims and not to be silent. Then again my kids wouldn’t film that scene. But maybe I do stand alone. We’ve drifted into a world of twitter and FB as moral guides. Many stake their moral high ground online. I do not.
The trials will not be held in Minneapolis or St Paul. There will be a change of venue to another city like Rochester or Duluth, or even Moorhead. Those juries will be less diverse than in the twin cities.
I really believe in the jury system. I think citizens can understand the differences in the law and apply the law to the facts.
It’s easy to think that way but I’m a white woman in my 50s coming from a lifetime of privilege that is afforded to white people especially those of us with a good education and comfortable SES. I do speak up and speak out! However, not everyone feels comfortable doing so or would be safe doing so.
Let’s not deflect the focus on what happened here and the culpability of the LEOs who should be held to higher standards by placing blame on witnesses.
Thank goodness it was taped!
The Noor / Damond case involved a black officer and a white victim. Relevant or not? Probably not easy to conclude anything statistically (as opposed to defaulting to partisan political beliefs on the matter), due to the very small sample size for any comparison.
Noor did have three complaints in two years as a police officer, an even higher rate than Chauvin’s (apparently unusually high) rate of complaints (17 or 18 in 19 years), although Noor’s relatively short time on the job subjects his complaint rate to small sample size issues.
Another article on the same subject: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-still-so-rare-for-police-officers-to-face-legal-consequences-for-misconduct/
Would you really try to stop a crime in progress when the suspects are obviously more powerful than you, especially if they are (rogue) police officers who are likely to be able to put you in the position of being an arrested suspect charged with various felonies, or being dead?
Bystanders may be more effective at actively stopping crimes when the power differential is in their favor, as opposed to the suspects’ favor.
@ucbalumnus Actually, yes I think I would. Have had several life experiences where I stepped in and refused to let something bad happen. One did involve police. I do think that many/most don’t stand up. It’s always risky to stand up. Sometimes physically sometimes for other reasons.
Of course, we weren’t there. And the murder(s) are the actual police. But I do find this to be a moral quandary. Something my family has talked about.
What are our responsibilities to each other in society? Who do we protect and why? Might get to why this seems to happen often. Are African-American men more exposed because no one stands up to help them than say a white grandma?
I would love to know what was going on in the minds of those who filmed this?
For the record, victims remember who stood up for them.
After a Supreme Court nomination I got an email from someone who was a victim of a sexual attack in high school. School tried to sweep it under the rug but as newsletter editor I published a signed piece. There was a lot of pressure from the school( even related to college acceptance). I didn’t relent. I was 14. It was four decades before #metoo. This student remembered clearly someone who stood up and thanked me. So yes, I know I would have done something. ( for anyone who wants to say hey there’s no comparison I also have a story that involves a gun).
And I’m not sidestepping the obvious culprits. Just sad that no one tried to stop them.
Bystanders did speak up. Thank goodness this was filmed.
The service today was very powerful. I was reminded of the song Wayfaring Stranger.
I’m going there to see my Mother
She said she’d meet me when I come.
So, I’m just going over Jordan
I’m just going over home.
Rest in Peace, George.
Can you describe these incidents, including the one involving the police?
Do you think that if you were present and tried to physically intervene against Derek Chauvin, instead of taking video and showing everyone, that you would have (a) been successful, and (b) not been arrested and charged for assaulting a police officer (or had a knee put on your throat)?
I don’t know enough Minnesota or any criminal law enough to have anything useful about the legal machinations of this case. What I saw, as so many did, was excessive force and abuse on part of the police, and little or no consequences. This in the heels of other such cases where enough wrong was done, that charges of dots should have been brought before a jury of peers.
The violence from the demonstrations over these cases should be contained, ironically by the very forces that have brought on the outage. It makes for a very difficult situation. I wish the police were there to protect the protesters and accompany them, watching for those in their ranks for purposes of violence and vandalism, instead of focusing on the protesters themselves.
I don’t know if I have described neighborhoods as “dysfunctional “, but I can tell you that less than a half block away, the statistics start more than double, I believe quadruple, in people who live there calling the police for all kinds of issues, including violent crimes. These are not outsiders calling police to those areas , and there are few calls on the other side of a particular street that might as well be a dividing line. This city is half black, and most of the criminal activity as reported by themselves involve them. The issues the families, the children face are flat out dysfunctional at best.
Speaking to the first post @ChangeTheGame “My question to others on CC is how does this case end now that the primary officer (Derek Chauvin) has been charged with 3rd-degree murder and 2nd-degree manslaughter? Should any other officers on the scene bear any criminal responsibility for what happened to George Floyd?” My opinions:
Most of all, though, I think the entire system of policing in this country needs to change. The recruitment, training, and assumptions are too protective of those wielding power. Wrongs are justified and compounded. It’s lethal and downright insulting to the best in all of us.
I hear and read things along the lines of remembering that police are human too, and what are they supposed to do given how dangerous their jobs are? I say give them the tools to de-escalate instead of thinking we’re supporting anyone by extending powers that harm. The idea of looking at the actions of police officers through a forgiving lens rather than holding them to a higher standard disgusts me. We as a society give people uniforms and arm them. We should be expecting and showing them how to live up to that.
To answer your original question, Derek Chauvin will be fairly tried, convicted and sentenced to a term in prison shorter than the protesters think he deserves. He will then be murdered in prison within three years because he’s a high profile trophy.
The other three officers will also be fairly tried, convicted and sentenced. Their minimal sentences will again reignite protests, and most likely vandalism.
@ucbalumnus not sure why someone should have to explain all the incidents for you. This is his/her experience, whether it fits into your narrative or not. I get that people want this thread to remain open and not “wander” but come on - it’s like threading a needle.
That being said I completely understand why someone would fear stepping into this altercation.
I also believe Chauvin will receive a just and harsh sentence - the other officers I have my doubts.
@EconPop the cop who had Eric Gardner in the chockhold was fired.