<p>I read the whole thread about lending to family members with great interest. Having my in-laws in for Thanksgiving ended with a great surprise! My FIL called a meeting with the “boys” to let them know he may need them to start supplementing their parents’ living expenses. It appears that he may not actually have enough saved to get through the ensuing years. He is in his mid 70’s and has no health issues. He works a few days a week doing light financial work for the middle son’s business. More a job that bil gave him to help out and was easy enough so not to stress him. I have some questions about the whole situation. The in-laws have a beautiful summer home that we already pay taxes and utilities on. There is no mortgage. They own a beautiful boat. They vacation in warmer weather 6 weeks in the winter. They live in another townhome that they just took out a reverse mortgage on. Now he wants to “retire” from the part-time job but feels he will need the kids’ help to do so. We are the oldest and our kids are college age and we would like to retire in the next 10 years or so. The other siblings also have college age kids and also some elementary age kids. We have all lived within our means so our kids won’t have loans for college. We don’t take out loans because we don’t buy anything unless we have the cash to do so because that’s how I was raised. I must confess that I am a little peeved and it would bother me to be paying their bills when they are vacationing for 6 weeks and we are lucky to get away for a week once a year! I would think he would continue working and cut out the vacations. They are far from destitute but don’t want to compromise their standard of living. My parents never had the lifestyle his parents do and unfortunately have passed away. I am surprised, confused, angry and feeling a little guilty. I really need time to process this!</p>
<p>Well if they can’t afford their lifestyle, they need to cut back.</p>
<p>I am another member of the sandwich generation, and I sympathize with you. My own parents have (also) passed away, and I have two in laws who are not well. The in laws are ok for the moment, but I sit on pins and needles for the eventual crisis that will come when one is left without the other. I would have some qualms about giving money to in laws in the situation that you describe. </p>
<p>There are many ways that your in laws could finance a good retirement, and it seems like you have keyed into how they can do this. Many people that we know who are NYers, NJians etc. sold their northeast homes and moved to cheaper retirement communities in the south, florida etc so that they could afford their retirement. These were middle class or working class (blue collar types) and have managed not to take money from their children. I do not think that anyone can afford two residences in retirement unless they have a substantial savings, or the residences are in low tax, low cost of living areas.</p>
<p>My own elderly mother lived as a widow for over 20 years on a very modest nest egg, tiny pension and ssi. We children would rather have inherited $0 and that she had spent more of her money. She never asked for a penny. My husband and I gave her some money each year, but it was not much, and mostly covered the cost of her airfare to visit us, plus a tiny amount more. She would never have wanted to be dependent.</p>
<p>Oh, dear! What is your husband saying about this? The other brothers? A reality check may be in order. Folks of the older generation tend to have a distorted idea of what things cost now…college tuitions are vastly higher for our offspring that our parents paid for us. I can remember my dad making comments about high salaried college professors and their children not needing scholarships, and even then, almost twenty years ago, he was not perceiving the realities of how things were and are. Without any kind of notion of “submitting a budget” to your father-in-law, a listing of some basic expenses of yearly health insurance, tuition bills, property taxes, etc., might help him understand that his expectations are unreasonable. Obviously you would not let him starve or lack housing, but subsidizing your in-laws’ life style at the expense of your and your children’s future is not right. Good luck.</p>
<p>Wow! Did the kids ever suggest they were willing to help? Would you guys be OK with the sale of the summer home?</p>
<p>I think as lorelei suggests, educating them as to the costs you’re facing would be the first step.</p>
<p>These things are so hard on the bio family member, how did your DH take this news?</p>
<p>sigh…H is caught in the middle and he also isn’t sure what to do at the moment. FIL doesn’t want to let anyone know exactly what their financial situation is and as I mentioned this has come up before and we currently pay all property taxes on the OOS vacation home and the utilities. There really hasn’t been any type of full disclosure and the siblings just pay because they think they should be there for their mom and dad. There has been a little grumbling but the boys really aren’t very good at “communicating.” I am the annoying one who says sell the boat, get rid of the dish tv at the summer home, get a more economical car, cut back on the vacations, sell the timeshares, quit entertaining as much, etc, blah blah blah… His mom just laughs at his dad and says things are not that bad. Talk about mixed messages!</p>
<p>I was very happy to help my mom in her last years as she really was on a very fixed income, lived in subsidized housing and didn’t have two dimes to rub together. She didn’t even WANT our help…so we just chipped in where we could (buying her plane tickets to visit, paying relocation costs when she moved here, taking her out, treating her to some new clothes, etc). BUT if she had not needed the help, we would not have done this. She had nothing to cut back on. </p>
<p>I agree with Lorelei…you need to be candid and honest about the expenses your family is facing (college costs). </p>
<p>I liked the suggestion on the other thread about sitting down with someone to help deal with the finances and figure out a way to “restructure” so that folks can make ends meet within their means. That gets the kids out of the business of making the suggestions and asking the questions…but it might help create a plan whereby the parents can support themselves within their means.</p>
<p>Do they have a pension? Do they have SS? How much income from the reverse mortgage? Do they NEED this vacation home? </p>
<p>Oh brother.</p>
<p>I can’t even imagine grandparents taking from their grandchildren’s future. Talk about entitled.</p>
<p>We found out a few months before my MIL died that my BIL had been stealing her blind. She couldn’t even afford the co-payments for her chemo. We didn’t have a lot of money, but of course, we paid and wouldn’t have done anything else. She didn’t have any life insurance (BIL stole the premiums) and left a very detailed and expensive plan for her wake, funeral and repast. It wiped us out when ZG was a junior in high school. I deeply resented that. Although, to his credit, so did my husband. I had a hard time getting over the $7000 catered luncheon for 200 of the nearest and dearest, but different families do different things, right?</p>
<p>I think a huge proportion of already-retired people who did not previously have financial worries… now have them. They have watched their retirement assets plunge, and what they had carefully planned would last another 20-30 years… they now see will not. Unless the market turns around dramatically.</p>
<p>So I think some parents who never expected to need any help are wrestling with whether to ask for such help from their children. Very difficult situation.</p>
<p>That said, I don’t get the parents described here needing help. They can liquidate the boat, the second home. And eliminate the 6-week winter vacation.</p>
<p>I sure don’t envy you, or your H and siblings, having to respond to them. And I don’t know what you do if you face a situation such as in the “lending to family member” thread, where one relative wants to help and other(s) don’t.</p>
<p>And a big problem is the boat and the car have no doubt plummeted in value in recent months. Selling those things probably wouldn’t make a dent. But taking money while they own 2 homes and vacation would be unacceptable to me and I’d have no problem telling them so. Seems like they lost the ability to carry the second home before this downturn and something has to give. Do they not understand everyone’s net worth is in question?</p>
<p>Can you put the vacation home for rent on Vacation Rental by Owner and generate some income out of it? Seems as if it may be vacant 46 weeks of the year. </p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>The summer/vacation home is a sore point for me. FIL asked us on Thursday to buy the place at full market value and allow them to continue to live there for 5-6 months out of the year. Oh…and also allow all siblings who want to vacation there at any time. The siblings don’t really use the place so they wouldn’t be a problem but I certainly don’t want to buy it! Yikes! Two kids in college next year. Yes, both will have nice scholarships but I do want to retire sometime and not be a burden on my kids! I say sell it and live off the proceeds. It is waterfront property so it has held value and I think they would be better off and we wouldn’t have the added expense of taking care of it! Yeah…they look at things differently than my family did, zmom. I don’t think it has ever crossed their mind that it might have any effect on their grandkids or even their kids’ future plans.</p>
<p>momof1…no, they live there most of the summer, travel/vacation in the winter other places. The townhome the rest of the year here in Minnesota.</p>
<p>I don’t know where the second home is, but the market for vacation homes is soft to non existent right now depending on where it is. I’d balk at selling mine right now too. Maybe a second reverse mortgage since they like the concept?</p>
<p>I think your DH and sibs need to sit them down for a financial talk. My own parents were shocked to learn what colleges cost these days. Explain buying the home can’t be done given your plans and a tenuous economy. Unless you and DH have recession proof jobs (are you morticians?) they should buy that you need to be conservative.</p>
<p>Groundrules need to be set. You need to see their budget – income and outgo. Until you are convinced that they can’t make do without your mortgaging your own future, your helping them isn’t an option.</p>
<p>I’m stunned at their asking for this. In my family, the goal has always been to live off the earnings and leave the principal to the kids. That’s what my parents did for me, and that’s what I hope to do for my kids. If, in order to live off the earnings, I can “only” have one house, that’s just fine with me.</p>
<p>Verryhappy, I’m wondering if it’s a non American culture. In many Asian families, for example, honoring the parents by caring for them is common. If not, they sound like entitled parents who want a return!</p>
<p>I don’t think this is common. No grandparents should be this demanding.</p>
<p>We are just your average Lake Wobegone residents. 
So, no, not really a cultural thing. Believe me, we are all just a little surprised by this. I want more info and I think I will be asking to be involved in the future discussions!!!</p>
<p>These parents need to go to a financial planner to get a outsiders look at assets, liabilities, income flow, etc. and to come up with plan for longevity. A healthy guy in his mid 70s could live into his 90s. This sort of planning takes some serious thought. I would suggest that all the kids volunteer to pay for it. You know–the kind of stuff that gets done in Money Magazine every month. </p>
<p>Dad could be just panicking with the financial meltdown. Maybe once he gets a plan, he’ll feel more secure.</p>
<p>A financial planner would be able to set up some scenarios…that may involve selling houses and moving to somewhere cheaper to make the money go farther.</p>
<p>But supplementing the income of a man in his mid 70s with no health issues? That’s a long term commitment…when he really needs the $$ so as not to live in a dive of a nursing home, you’ll be all tapped out.</p>
<p>“I can’t even imagine grandparents taking from their grandchildren’s future. Talk about entitled.”
I agree with zoosermom. I think your FIL is completely out of line, and hope his sons can politely tell him so. There is a lot of good advice here. Sell or rent the summer house, the timeshares, the boat-- for starters. This is no economy to be taking chances in. Take care of yourselves and your children first.</p>
<p>My mother is 84, and perfectly well off, but is constantly pleading poverty and having everyone believe she is the destitute pore ol’ widder lady. She could live another 20 years and be just fine money-wise. I think some seniors do tend to fixate on money, and seem to forget the responsibilities their children are facing.</p>
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<p>On the other hand, there are a lot of people who think of Grandma/pa as the Bank of Grandma and Grandpa! The economy is getting so unsettled that I am hearing from my (much) older friends that not only are their grandkids hitting them up for $$, their adult children are asking for loans.</p>
<p>Times are tough…</p>