GoBlueAlumMom - I know you are reading about this (Sport Management)

[A2Wolves6]

<p>[Kinesiology</a> reserves slots for University of Michigan athletes University of Michigan Academics and Athletics - MLive.com](<a href=“http://www.mlive.com/wolverines/academics/stories/index.ssf/2008/03/kinesiology_reserves_slots_for.html]Kinesiology”>Kinesiology reserves slots for University of Michigan athletes - mlive.com)</p>

<p>Look at these exerpts:</p>

<p>An example of a student-athlete who had his spot in the class reserved for him, taking it away from a student like me:

With the fall term drawing to a close, Jay Basten monitored students taking his final exam in Sport Management 111, a course at the University of Michigan.</p>

<p>During the essay test last December, one undergraduate - an athlete - caught Basten’s attention.</p>

<p>“I could tell by the look on his face, and also based on the work he had done previously in class, that he had no clue what to write,” Basten said. “It was a 50-minute exam, and he probably wrote three sentences.”

</p>

<p>The good (wait, there is no good!):

Basten worked in Michigan’s admissions office before becoming a faculty member, and he said he knows about the compromises made when admitting some athletes.

</p>

<p>The bad:

Sixty slots - or roughly half an incoming freshman class in kinesiology - are reserved for athletes, several faculty members said.</p>

<p>“They’re willing to almost give them a little bit of the benefit of the doubt when they look at their standard scores and other things,” admissions director Ted Spencer said of kinesiology.

</p>

<p>The ugly:

Though Spencer added there are “no absolutes” when it comes to minimum high school grade point averages for athletic admissions, he acknowledged the College of Literature, Science, and the Arts generally considers a GPA of 2.7 or 2.8 to be the floor. It’s in the 2.3-to-2.5 range for kinesiology, he said. The average high school GPA for an incoming Michigan freshman last fall was 3.8.</p>

<p>Spencer’s view of admissions was reflected in the minutes from January’s meeting of a Michigan faculty senate committee. There, admissions staff told members that “a disproportionate fraction of students admitted at rock-bottom level are scholarship athletes in certain sports.”

</p>

<p>So, let me summarize.</p>

<p>The University needs a way to get athletes into the University. So who gets hurt in return? Rather than The students who seriously want to study Sport Management. They reserve half the spots in the program for the dumb athletes (yes, I can say dumb when you look at the average GPA). </p>

<p>In return, Sport Management applicants are forced to face increased competition (for no real reason - these are students that will be forced out and never make the second level for their stupidity). And the best part is - they don’t even want to be in Kinesiology, it’s just the University’s way of finding a spot for the athletes! “He didn’t remember asking to be enrolled in the kinesiology division.”</p>

<p>Then, after they do poorly, they move on to “General Studies” to finish up their degree.</p>

<p>My question is - why is it the Sport Management students who get hurt? Why not just put these kids in General Studies programs to begin with? Why deny qualified students who have a genuine interest in sport management, when there is no reason to? </p>

<p>This was part 2 in the 4 part series. They’re trying to make the football program look bad, but really, they’re missing the issue here. The first article seemed kind of weak.</p>

[hoedown]

<p>This is D1 athletics in American today. Where do you want those athletes to go? Is it palatable to you that they go into LSA and displace students there? You’re focused on Sports Management/Kines because that’s where you hoped to go, but the point is, every single spot given to or held for an athlete, a development admit, the daughter of a senator, someone from Wyoming, etc… every one of those spots means someone else hears no.</p>

[SBDad]

<p>Daughter of a senator, really?? Does she have a solid three-point shot?</p>

[GoBlueAlumMom]

<p>Relating to S’s admissions experience, here’s what chaps my a$$. I knew from being a student that there’s a catch basin school within the U that soaks up all the underqualified athletes. In my day, it was the School of Education where most majored in Phys Ed. Seeing that the School of Ed was no longer a freshman admit option when S was applying, I suspected that sports-type programs such as the ones in the Kines School would be the logical place where athletes were being funneled. Before submitting the app, we called Kines and SPECIFICALLY asked if slots were reserved for athletes and, if so, how many. They were vague to the point of denial. Why hide it? Be up front about it so legitimate prospies know what odds they face, especially when they actually make the effort to ask! S should have gone LS&A…we know that NOW. Being misled only compounded his long, ugly deferral mess. </p>

<p>Hoedown-- Sure, spots need to go to underqualified athletes, but I say a large, generalist school like LS&A is the appropriate place. Kines is way too small and specialized, and good programs like SM are being dragged down by having to absorb so many athletes. Spread those kids throughout LS&A where no single program would feel the hit. There’s no cap to the number of kids who can declare a general studies major as there are limited spots in the SM program.</p>

[A2Wolves6]

<p>

This is D1 athletics in American today. Where do you want those athletes to go? Is it palatable to you that they go into LSA and displace students there? You’re focused on Sports Management/Kines because that’s where you hoped to go, but the point is, every single spot given to or held for an athlete, a development admit, the daughter of a senator, someone from Wyoming, etc… every one of those spots means someone else hears no.

</p>

<p>Yes, that is EXACTLY where I am saying they should go. Forcing students to enroll in a program against their wishes, where they will end up transferring out, taking away spots from qualified applicants is a terrible way to manage athletic admission. Enrolling in LSA with the ability to go to the college of their choice is what Michigan should be doing with their athletes.</p>

<p>I think it’s awfully ignorant for you to think “This is D1 athletics in America today.” When have you worked in an athletic department? When have you talked to athletes about their classes, their advisers? I do it everyday, that is my job, and I assure you that what we do is in no way similar to what Michigan is doing. This attitude takes away from the institutions that go by the rules when one institution uses the excuse “everyone does it!”</p>

<p>I’m not focusing on SM because it’s where I hoped to go. If you recall correctly, I got into the program. If I wanted to go to Michigan, I would have. I am focusing on it because that program is the subject of the article, the center of the academic fraud scandal going on at the University.</p>

[hoedown]

<p>Awfully ignorant? That’s pretty rude. </p>

<p>The reality is, in MANY programs across the country at the D1 level, admissions standards are not the same for tendered athletes as they are for other students. So some students come in with less college preparation than their non-athlete peers on campus. I know, without working in athletics, that this is a fact at Michigan, and it’s pretty well documented that this is true at other campuses.</p>

<p>There’s a further issue that is true here, and I know this to be true without working in the athletic department: student athletes have substantial demands on their time due to their athletic participation. Perhaps that’s not true on other campuses, although I’d be awfully surprised based on information I have from friends who work in other athletic departments and ongoing research on this issue done across the country. </p>

<p>Together, these things mean that some athletes find it challenging to take the same course patterns and majors that their peers on campus do. How they negotiate these challenges may vary from campus to campus–seeking flexible classes, clustering in majors believed to be easier, getting academic tutoring, etc, but IT DOES GO ON. D1 Athletics and they way they are run make it necessary. </p>

<p>I do not believe I am “ignorant” to think that accommodations are made for (and are sought by) athletes on campuses besides Michigan. It would take more than the word of one young man who works for Indiana’s athletics campus to convince me otherwise. I want to see more proof than your say-so. And you should send it to the AA news, as well, since their own reporting showed that athletes at other schools cluster in majors (for just one example).</p>

<p>I have some serious concerns about this system, and I think schools and he NCAA need to take a good hard look at it. The fact that things are like this is NOT some fairy tale I’ve ignorantly dreamed up. One does not have to work in the athletic department to know these things. D1 athletics in the United States post some very serious questions, NOT just at Michigan.</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>A2Wolves, name calling is not tolerated in the Wolverine forum. I am sure you can express yourself adequately without resorting to it. </p>

<p>And there is no “academic fraud” taking place at Michigan. There is an unfortunate double standard to be sure. Athletes are admitted with greater easy and offered more academic flexibility in chosing easy courses. However, there is no fraud. However, I agree that athletes and celebrities are given way too many breaks. It is time the double standards cease.</p>

[hoedown]

<p>Well, in A2Wolves’ defense, “ignorant” is more an adjective than a name… I’ve been called worse. </p>

<p>At any rate, I just don’t believe this is a Michigan problem. That doesn’t make it RIGHT, or make it less serious…it means it’s a bigger problem and I hope if there’s a serious conversation to be had about it, people who matter will talk about all that’s worrisome about D1 sports in this country. Not just what’s wrong with Michigan. And I don’t think picking another academic unit for students is the solution.</p>

<p>If Indiana is so different, I’m interested to know what Sperber was so het up about for all those years.</p>

[A2Wolves6]

<p>

And there is no “academic fraud” taking place at Michigan.

You seriously can’t possibly believe this after reading these series of articles. </p>

<p>Lets see, the athletic department did the following.</p>

<ul>
<li>Admitted athletes that were not even close academically</li>
<li>Placed them into programs that they didn’t want to be in</li>
<li>Signed them up for classes against their will</li>
<li>Pushed them towards certain classes because of the lenient grading</li>
<li>Found ways to make them eligible (independent study grade boosters)</li>
</ul>

<p>But no, that is in no way academic fraud. Those transcripts are 100% representative of the athlete’s academic capability, right?</p>

<p>You guys are saying in a sense that all that is going on here in this investigation is that they are admitting athletes who are below average, and that every university does this, therefore it’s not a big deal. That’s not even the main issue at hand, or what this thread is even about. It’s about the University of Michigan denying spots for qualified applicants in the sport management program because that’s how they’re getting their athletes into the university. That’s not what my institution does, that’s not what most institutions do. We don’t take away opportunities from students deserving of them, which is something Michigan has apparently been doing for years. That’s what my post said.</p>

<p>But if you want to talk about other athletic departments and what they do, then that’s fine. No, not every D1 athletics institution puts their admitted athletes into programs against their students will, signs them up for classes without the students knowing, steers them towards certain professors that will grade more lenient making them eligible. If you’re not taking my word (someone who actually works in the Big Ten, works in an athletic department), do your research. Go and talk to people outside of Ann Arbor about their athletic departments and how they deal with the student athletes. Don’t have the time? Look at the charts presented in the articles about how Michigan is “different” than other institutions.</p>

<p>I find it awfully hard to believe that people who graduated from a decent university as Michigan would just dismiss everything being said in an article as “Oh, everyone does it.” Did you take ENG 101 with these athletes or something? It’s not hard comprehension. Not every school in the country has classes full of athletes. No, it’s not a coincidence that the average GPA of this class far exceeded what the average GPA of the enrolled students were. </p>

<p>"When asked what they learned in Hagen’s courses, some athletes described being taught how to take notes, use a day planner, make a calendar and manage their time. In many cases, athletes said the main content of these courses was study skills and time management, although Hagen called the material “learning styles.” How did they get this course approved by the state? Since when do people who enroll at Michigan and qualify academically by the NCAA not know how to take notes, use a planner, make a calendar? I know 1st graders who can do those functions.</p>

<p>What’s funny is that the person laughing most about all of this is Jim Harbaugh. Did he not say that all of this was going on, and the arrogant Michigan alums shrugged it off and called him bitter?</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>A2Wolves, none of your points constitute fraud:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Admitted athletes that were not even close academically
So what? If they aren’t allowed to play until they are eligible, it does not constitute a breach in NCAA regulations. </p></li>
<li><p>Placed them into programs that they didn’t want to be in
If those athletes don’t have the ability to pursue said program, why should they be admitted? Not every student (athlete or otherwise) is permitted to major in Enigneering or Business. It is up to the academic programs, not the athletics departments, to allow students into a particular major or school…based on academic ability, not athletic potential.</p></li>
<li><p>Signed them up for classes against their will
Against their will? LOL! At gun point? Come on, most students are at the University because of their academic abilities. Not so with many athletes, who are at the University because of their athletic abilities. If the athletic program that is paying for the scholarship feels that a particular course will endanger their athletes’ eligibility or take too much time from practice, it is entitled to object.</p></li>
<li><p>Pushed them towards certain classes because of the lenient grading
As long as the athletes were not treated or graded differently from others taking those classes, again, I fail to see how this constitutes fraud.</p></li>
<li><p>Found ways to make them eligible (independent study grade boosters)
If it is documented and does in fact make them eligible, so be it.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>A2Wolves, nobody is saying Michigan’s double standards are admirable. But do you honestly believe that this sort of thing does not happen at other Division I program? Why do you think those articles aren’t going to generate an NCAA investigation? Everything that Michigan does is done at other universities, including the Ivy League, which aren’t even supposed to give athletic scholarships. At least Divsion I programs can admit to accepting students purely for their athletic ability.</p>

[SBDad]

<p>Point in case. My nephew is being recruited for football by Harvard. They told him that he had to have a 26 ACT or he would not be able to attend. A 26???</p>

[hoedown]

<p>

You guys are saying in a sense that all that is going on here in this investigation is that they are admitting athletes who are below average, and that every university does this, therefore it’s not a big deal.

</p>

<p>No, I’m not saying it’s not a big deal. </p>

<p>My original point was that if institutions admit students below their usual standard, other students who meet the standard are going to hear NO. That’s true at Michigan. It’s true whether athletes enroll in Kines (and no, I do not believe they are ALL put into sports management, or all “forced” into that area–some of them actually want the degree) or in LSA or anywhere else. LSA may be bigger, but that doesn’t mean LSA can ignore its enrollment targets and not count athletes. I don’t work in the athletics department but that’s not where enrollment targets get set. I know for a fact that athletes are counted as students regardless of where they are enrolled. If I admit 30 athletes into LSA, that means 30 other students who wanted to be in LSA can’t be in LSA. </p>

<p>My point wasn’t that this isn’t a big deal. My point was that it’s an issue (big or small, clearly opinions vary on that, and mine isn’t what you think) no matter whose ox is being gored.</p>

<p>If no other school in D1 athletics counts athletes toward their overall enrollment targets, I’d be quite surprised.</p>

[gijonman]

<p>Well two things. Firstly, i applied in septmeber to Kines with a 31 ACT and a pretty good GPA and got differed and was essentially told i’d have a better chance to get in by switching to LSA so I did. Secondly, I have a friend whose relative founded the program and it was founded to be an easy major for athletes but since then it has grown. Just some food to thought, when i applied i knew the school reserved spots for athletes, but didn’t realize how much of SM they reserved.</p>

[A2Wolves6]

<p>Nothing there constitutes fraud? Really?</p>

<p>Here’s the definition of fraud, since you clearly don’t know it.

The use of deception for unlawful gain.

So the university tricks athletes into certain majors (against what they want to do) so that they can be eligible to play football is in no way shape or form fraudulent? Advisers giving advice that is malicious in its intent is not fraud? The entire situation is fraudulent. </p>

<p>This is comical. Athletes get into the school that “are no where close academically”, they take BS independent study classes to get themselves eligible, advisers put them in majors they don’t want to go into, they learn nothing from their classes, and the response is “so what”? Michigan is ruining the futures of numerous individuals, cheating the NCAA in an attempt to gain an advantage on the football field, and all that is elicited from alums is “so be it”. What about the future of these kids? What about the opportunities they are wasting that another kid who Michigan denies? I guess it’s not important at a football factory.</p>

<p>You’re dismissing the ability of the athletes, nowhere in the articles did I read that athletes did not have the ability to pursue programs. They may have been talented individuals who took upon the opportunity to pursue their passion (is that not why we go to college?) but instead, Michigan is essentially saying “sorry, we only have space for kids like you in Sport Management”. But that’s OK at Michigan. Discouraging people from applying and pursuing the programs they want to, that’s cool. This isn’t about admitting them into the programs. It’s about forcing these kids down a career path they don’t want. Why not put them in general studies, why not let them take pre-requisites and then apply to the program of their choice? Advisers are obtaining passwords, going into these students’ documents and putting them in classes they don’t want to. That is against their will. Do I need to pull out the definitions again?</p>

<p>When a class has 80% athletes in it, it isn’t because there is a coincidence. It is because an adviser told these kids about the easy class and signed them up for it. Athletes compromise a small percentage of the university. You don’t see anything wrong when there is a class with a large proportion of students, where the average GPA of the class is much higher than the students in the class? That doesn’t scream academic misconduct to you?</p>

<p>I’ll link the article again, because I don’t know how none of this registered with you.</p>

<p>

But do you honestly believe that this sort of thing does not happen at other Division I program?

No, I am not saying that at all. That’s not what anyone is arguing. At the football factory “down south”, this goes on all the time (you should know the school I am talking about). </p>

<p>However, I take stance against when people shrug this off saying “it goes on EVERYWHERE else” because that completely takes away from the schools that go by the book, that do things right, that stay within compliance. It does not go on at every institution, you’re flat out wrong with that comment. Will it go under investigation? Last time Michigan was accused of wrong-doing (1996), it told the NCAA “we’re not doing anything wrong” and the NCAA hit them with a 4 year probation. Reggie Bush was given a $750,000 house and nothing has happened yet, so maybe it will, maybe it won’t, it would be wrong to conclude that this is over less than 2 weeks after information was released to the public. </p>

<p>Hoedown, I understand your point completely and there are spots reserved for athletes in the class and I don’t have a problem with that. I just think it’s ridiculous that Michigan holds the spots in the Kinesiology Sport Management program rather than LSA general studies. It makes much more sense to do so and I know that other universities practice this.</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>A2Wolves, have you looked at the average high school GPA and SAT/ACT scores of football programs at other universities and compared them to those of the average students at those institutions?</p>

<p>Duke University
[Fight</a>, Blue Devils, fight - Columns](<a href=“http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/10/20/Columns/Fight.Blue.Devils.Fight-2379823.shtml]Fight”>http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/10/20/Columns/Fight.Blue.Devils.Fight-2379823.shtml)</p>

<p>Rice University
[Off</a> the Kuff: The Rice sports debate](<a href=“http://www.offthekuff.com/mt/archives/003391.html]Off”>Off the Kuff: The Rice sports debate)</p>

<p>Stanford University and Northwestern (scroll to the bottom of the page)
[Pro-football-reference.com</a> blog College football thoughts](<a href=“http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=93]Pro-football-reference.com”>http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=93)</p>

<p>University of California-Berkeley and Los Angeles
[The</a> California Golden Blogs :: Cal Football Academics Standards < UCLA Football Academic Standards? :: June :: 2007](<a href=“Blogsome”>Blogsome)</p>

<p>University of Notre Dame
[Busting</a> the admissions standards myth - Viewpoint](<a href=“http://media.www.ndsmcobserver.com/media/storage/paper660/news/2004/12/07/Viewpoint/Busting.The.Admissions.Standards.Myth-823220.shtml]Busting”>http://media.www.ndsmcobserver.com/media/storage/paper660/news/2004/12/07/Viewpoint/Busting.The.Admissions.Standards.Myth-823220.shtml)</p>

<p>A2Wolves, I am not talking about schools like Alabama, FSU or OSU that have a win-at-all-cost attitude. I am talking about the Dukes Stanfords of the world. The mean SAT score for a football player at those universities is 300 points lower than the mean SAT score of an average student at their respect universities. THREE HUNDRED points. I don’t even need to get into the breaks those students get once enrolled at the university. The admissions process on its own pretty much proves my point beyond any doubt. </p>

<p>At the end of the day, athletes who are of a certain academic calibre can do whatever they like. They can major in whatever subject they chose, take whatever classes they like and enroll into whichever college within the university they are admitted into. Unfortunately, most athletes don’t meet such academic standards, not just at Michigan, but at schools like Duke, Notre Dame, Rice and even Stanford. If you think those students with average SAT scores in the 1000-1100 range can handle the coursework and intensity of an average class at those universities, you aren’t looking at the big picture.</p>

[hoedown]

<p>As a point of clarification, LSA does not admit to majors (neither does Engin, for what it is worth). They don’t hold spaces in any major. Students are admitted to the overall college and make their major/concentration choices at a later time. I think athletes gravitate toward certain majors in LSA for the reasons noted in the articles, but they aren’t “admitted” to those majors. </p>

<p>Kines may be different–their admit process is separate and I don’t sit in on those meetings. However, it was my understanding that applicants to Kines were invited to check “areas of interest” – but not declare a major. The app I have in front of me is a little dated (Fall 2006) but has four choices plus “undecided.” If the News is claiming that applicants were admitted to sports management, I’d really question that.</p>