Enjoying your updates. Waiting to see if there will be any surprises…
Not so sure about Coral Gables and gigging. That too is a suburban area with the city 6-7 miles and about 30 minutes in traffic away.
I was looking at South Beach and Coconut Grove when I was thinking of locations. I could be incorrect if that is not a centroid of gigging. I know that the students were saying that freshmen would usually have 1 gig per week, and upperclassmen could have 6 gigs a week, as long as they felt it was wise to gig that much. I have no comparative data for the other locations about how many gigs per week students might have.
GoForth, I’m curious how you are calculating your numbers - specifically are you just including hard costs (tuition, fees, room and board), or are you putting in a factor for personal expenses. I’m debating on this - we already pay for personal expenses as it is (and room and board of course, but it would be much cheaper with us). For example, right now we pay for the expenses of S’s car - gas, insurance and maintenance. If he goes to school in state, he’ll keep the car. If not he’ll need some airline travel, so that is offsetting. So it doesn’t feel so much like a “college” expense. We won’t be paying for private lessons any more, or for club soccer which is no small expense.
We have a second child going to college next year, so getting our heads around exactly how this will impact bottom line is a difficult but important task. I’m wondering how you did it.
Looks like we will be heading to the Future Cane Day. Since S sent in a video audition, and did a Skype lesson, we haven’t been to campus. But the scholarship makes it very attractive, so off to visit we go.
@BassTheatreMom - I decided to start with a very generic approach that anyone else could reproduce. So I go to each colleges net price pages and use all the things they do to calculate net (actually gross) cost - tuition, fees, room, board, personal expenses, travel, books. Whatever they felt inclined to say. This way, I “took myself out of the equation”.
Computed next are any scholarships or in-state-tuition re-categorizations, or anything specific to S that is discounted from the price. This can influence the cost by huge degrees in different ways for each person.
A more refined layer of cost has not been computed, such as cost of flying into certain airports versus others. We may not go to that phase if there is no feeling that we need to parse it down that far.
@GoForth - you are kind to share your numbers. To any future parents, these numbers look very realistic based on our experience too. One of my favorite stories to tell is when my D (VP) and a friend of hers (MT) sang at her old school for an event for parents looking into music schools after Freshman year. Parents did ask about scholarships. The father of the MT student kind of chuckled and said there’s a LOT of money out there. He said how he was surprised at how much his son got. Of course I, Debbie Downer, said that there are scholarships but don’t think your kid is going to school for free (and yes a few may get full tuition but it is NOT the rule). I told parents you should plan on at least in-state tuition and housing. You may end up lower but you could definitely end up higher (even with a $20,000 or $25,000 annual scholarship).
After the event, the accompanist said to me…well boys (the MT friend) often get more money than girls. I knew the family well so his dad was happy to share the scholarship amount with me. I corrected the accompanist and said “No his son got nearly the same scholarship as my D…it’s simply his dad and I have very different views of A LOT!” For his dad who looked more at private schools taking a $50,000 school down by $20,000 or $25,000 felt big. And it is!! I was proud of my D. Still, it felt like what I was expecting to pay…honestly to be BIG, I needed it to be below in-state! I dreamed about it…but it didn’t happen in UG.
And … I don’t want this to sound like you shouldn’t be proud of large scholarships at private schools. You should…an admission is tough! But I just don’t want people to think “big” means close to full tuition. So hopefully these numbers and the different perspectives of “big” helps future parents.
Their sticker prices can be accurate, padded or light depending how they calculated, it might make sense to consider standardizing the miscellaneous non-travel costs. Then factor in travel, while being cognizant that thanksgiving, Christmas, and spring break could all be far over a typical flight cost. Then depending on the school decide how many trips home are affordable. Plus factor in how often you will travel to campus as well. I have seen some very detailed well thought analysis of costs but afterwards they realized they didn’t factor in the holidays into cost estimates and it blew their budgets.
I wouldn’t factor in 6 paid gigs a week as a student.
Thanks @GoForth - We are a bit below you at UNT, probably because we started off in-state, and just a tiny bit more than that at UTx. I’m guessing our kids got the same scholarship at Miami, because our numbers are almost identical if I add in money for personal expenses. Berklee is at about $180K. That’s all we know right now. We also have a couple of five year programs on the list, so looking at the total cost over all years is as important for us as looking at individual years. One is an issue for total investment, the other for cash flow. Both matter a lot.
@bridgenail , thanks for that insight. One person’s idea of a “big scholarship” may not be your idea of one. Looking over at the admission pages for the different schools, it makes me sad seeing so many folks who have gotten in to a dream school but have no way to pay for it.
@BassTheatreMom - UNT was 2 years of $5K Excellence and 4 years of $1K music, which then triggered computing at in-state rates. Frost was $30K “Presidential Music 2”
@GoForth, S also got Presidential Music 2, but got 20K instead of 30K (big difference). S did not get any academic merit either (which I wasn’t expecting). So I figure it this way in rough numbers: Tuition, room and board about $62,000 or whatever the number is minus $20,000 - so about $42,000. $42,000 without plane rides back and forth and personal expenses. When you add these in the cost is roughly $52,000 or more. S loved Frost, it was in fact a top choice, but he has other jazz options for $14,000, $30,000, $36,000 and $37,000. (and these options don’t involve plane rides back and forth so I am afraid that Frost is out for us).
Note for my comment above, we did not qualify for any financial need…although with college costs today, I certainly felt needy!!!
@SpartanDrew, there are various definitions of “meets need”, and people in other threads are probably more qualified to speak to this. BUT, there is a spectrum of cost vs. aid and different schools have VERY different goals regarding this. My D is a Soprano looking at BM VP programs (Opera focus, but she has a lot of MT experience); this is a hugely competitive subcategory! As we are very financially needy, we really tried to diversify the selections of schools she chose to apply to. Most stand alone Conservatories and even smaller Private Schools don’t have huge endowments, and don’t even pretend to try to reach need for lower income students; they just can’t, or they have Graduate programs (especially in Opera, for instance) where they focus their money. Many excellent State schools with big programs are just as expensive as Private schools, if you are paying out of state tuition, AND their hands are tied by rules regarding how much talent merit aid they are allowed to give (not much). And sadly, we live in a state without a big program. And then, there are elite Private programs with huge endowments that promise in say, 96-100% of cases, to meet need. However, admissions decisions at these types of schools are ALWAYS informed by a families finances (in other words, such programs cannot admit 50% needy kids and still pay the bills) so it can be even harder to be accepted to these sorts of programs. Aaaah!
So…we made sure to diversify when our D was choosing programs to apply to. She chose 1 small, private elite program that made no claims whatsoever regarding aid; she was accepted (amazing), received talent merit, and we just heard a few days ago that we would need to borrow $35,000/year above our EFC to send her. Impossible. Her only rejection, so far, was during the prescreen for another Very Elite Private the DOES pledge to get close to meeting need, and in her rejection letter reference was actually made to our financial situation (we were grateful that they were honest about this and we didn’t waste the $ on an audition trip to that school). School 3 is a neighboring State school. D is accepted, but the merit aid is pending (and limited by rules, we have already been told). School 4 is an expensive LAC with Conservatory that historically meets need 97% of the time. D is accepted, received very large talent merit, and we are waiting on the full aid package, so this is still in the cards! School 5 is a State school in another state with an excellent program, but OOS tuition is as much as a Private. She is accepted, with highest merit award possible, and they are trying to help us with outside funding. Still possible! School 6 is the storied, elite LAC with Conservatory that promises to meet need. We shall hear from them this week. D has received some VERY promising emails from professors there, but see my comment above regarding admission decisions at such schools always being informed by need. Ugh. So, even with 4 big admits, and one more pending decision, it is still possible our D will need to take a gap year.
I encourage you to diversify with your child, as well! This is such an uncertain process! Check out Collegedata.com, search the schools you are interested in, hover over the name and click on “money matters” for some very illuminating information!
@dramasopranomom WOW! That was a lot of info and very very helpful. D will absolutely have to get decent merit aid because we won’t qualify for financial aid and I doubt she will get anything as far as aid for academics. And I agree with you @bridgenail that despite not qualifying we certainly feel needy in that we cannot afford the price tags of any of these elite music schools. We are absolutely counting on merit aid or none of these places will be possible for her.
Michigan just called for S’ SSN to do something in the FAFSA, and said they need a CSS, which we have not needed at the others so far.
Whew! Just filled out the CSS and had it sent in.
I would like to explain a personal philosophy. Bear with me. I naturally don’t like conflict and argument. If I am asking for a raise, for example, and the person I am asking says, “Do you think you’re really worth that much?” Or “You’ve only been here 6 months and other guys haven’t had a raise in 2 years.” Or “We have 2% to spread around this year”. Or any other statement that has anything to do with the perceived relationship between me and the other party. What do I do? Well, first of all, I only asked for a raise because I knew there was a market that justified my asking. So I block the discussion about the relationship between me and the other party, and I introduce the discussion about the relationship between the other party and “the market”. So, if someone is confronting me, I try to remove the conflict between me and them, and redirect their attention to the conflict between them and the market. Or, think of it as if we are staring at each other, I would rather turn our faces +/-90 degrees to the side and look at the problem we share.
OK. So what does that mean? It means that if you have market data and some offers from the market (college offers), I really don’t care about arguing about my EFC with any particular institution. I just don’t get stuck in that argument, that trap. For example, with a WP and/or a UNT, I have established a market price, so if I later must have some discussion with any place that is far away from that market price, I really don’t have to think about what is our fair share to pay, or why do we think we don’t have to pay $XXX when we make so much. I don’t have to think about how many thousands the scholarship is and why do I think S deserves more. None of those thoughts have anything to do with the market.
I am “anticipating” that with the detail requests of FAFSA and CSS that such an episode is coming from one of our remaining colleges, where they want to give something, but want to measure that they are only going to give a fair and justified amount. So, the above thoughts came to mind.
So, that’s quite a few words. I was trying to convey some concept I had that might be a good point of discussion if anyone felt they were getting into a mind trap about offers and costs. Also, it may suggest to get a couple of good value options lined up, because if you only have high-risk options, you might not be able to develop leverage or a safe plan.
Thoughts? Counter-points?
University of Michigan will never consider William Patterson a peer. UNT is not their peer either for example.
Need based aid is not a negotiation.
They essentially will politely say if you like those offers you should take one of them.
Yes, I agree with the above. When you are working with some of these “big dog” schools, you aren’t “in the driver’s seat” as much as you would like to be. There’s typically other students wanting the same spot. Remember they accept more than spots available. BUT, you just never know.
So, as a disciplined person, you do your “job” without anticipating the outcome. In other words, you put together your rationale for more money and ask.
I would wait for all offers. If Michigan is the highest (or simply too high), you politely point that out noting any other scholarships received (even if not from peer schools - you may even acknowledge that but making the point that you have other options). Then you ask if there is any more money. The same thing if you have no comparable offers. You simply state you are pleased to be accepted but…it’s expensive, is there anymore money? If they bite (meaning say yes maybe), then you can start talking about “what it would take to get your student in their university today”.
They will never rescind an offer if you ask…so ask. I did something similar at IU (a big dog for voice) and used a school that IU would not consider a peer. I couldn’t use others bc they were similar (and frankly IU had done a pretty good job but I asked anyway). I half expected the “no” and that’s what I got.
STILL, maybe just maybe, the teacher really wants your son or their yield in that instrument isn’t what they expected or they do have some extra dollars…you just never know. So ask.
@SpartanDrew sorry that I over shared, Lol! I just figure if the intense amount of work and effort we have gone through can help anyone else, then it is worth sharing? And @GoForth, my Dad, who was a Business and Marketing teacher, used to drill into our heads that a good or service (in this case, talent/potential?) is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it! And I think it is a VERY good thing for all of us parents of artists to remember, and teach our children. Attaching inherent worth to our kids and their art doesn’t really have anything to do with money; they are worthy even when they don’t perform well, win, or get paid, right?? But, they are entering a tricky industry, and they will need to be scrappy! So, yes! I also try to stay away from worrying about if my child “deserves” more money! It’s more about what is possible for us to pay, and what value we believe D is receiving from the service (education). And, yes! Definitely let your schools know your other offers, and ask for more money, like you and @bridgenail have said. We are all very lucky to have choices, and a big part of the decision making process is money (at least for us), and all these big programs know this! It’s a dance from now until May 1! Best of luck to all!
Generally merit aid appeals where you try and use other offers will require that the schools in question at least be somewhat of a peer to the school requesting it. For example, on a grad school basis, getting into Yale school of music, that is totally tuition free, or a program like Colburn that is free ride, could be used to get more money out of another school, if they want you, and you say “finances are really tight, and I got into Yale SOM, I got into Colburn, and I would love to go to your school but right now I don’t think I can afford it”, it can influence them to give you more money (note, I recommend only doing that if you really want to go to that program, I recommend you don’t pit all the schools in your list against each other, it is a small world, but if there is one, maybe two, schools on the list you really would like to go to, but they financially are a problem, appealing would make sense).
This worked really well for D3 (music conservatories) for MM, and also for BM. It also worked for D4 for her undergrad theater degree. They key is to have offers from peer (or, as in the case of D4 “perceived” superior) schools. D3 was able to go to her first choice grad school tuition-free after admission to Yale and another school that waived tuition and gave a stipend. If not, she would have chosen one of the other schools to avoid grad school debt. For this reason, it can be prudent to apply to schools that offer full rides, or at least to peer school of your first choice. Not only will you have a financial fallback, but you will have the opportunity to make a stronger appeal for more financial help.
@dramasopranomom you didn’t overshare at all! Such great and beneficial info here for me as we get ready to follow all of your path’s this summer, fall and next spring. Things I didn’t know or consider I know now. I actually feel somewhat more optimistic about D getting some merit aid. I just hope it’s enough…