Golden Doodles Anyone?

Princedog · June 26, 2007, 10:56pm

I am not sure who told them this, maybe a “designer dog” (it is a mutt) breeder which just reinforces my already well developed perception of them (all right I’m gonna stop now). But it is not true in any sense of the word. These dogs are not even particularly well bred.

Smaller dogs tend to live longer on average than larger dogs. For example a Bernese Mountain dogs generally live about 8-10 years while a small sheltie can live 14-16. However that is assuming a lot of variables. A 30-40 pound golden-retriever poodle mix will probably live 12-14 years on average. No matter what kind of dog you get you as a human will outlive it barring catastrophe and the difference is for most dogs going to be a year or two. Again I have to say it is completely FALSE that designer dogs will live longer.

The misinformation being perpetrated by this type of breeding is very disturbing but unfortunately not surprising. I have really heard it all, and sadly most of it is just out to make money and not help dogs or people. It is things like this that make it much better to look for a dog through a reputable show breeder or a reputable rescue organization.

There are many small golden retriever looking dogs out there. Please advise them to consider another course of action. There are many people well qualified to evaluate dogs. The best thing about a rescue and a reputable breeder is they are with you for the dog’s LIFE. They are not pumping out dogs they can’t keep up with. A good breeder will make it absolutely CLEAR that they will take the dog back should anything happen. But good breeders don’t breed mixes, I’m sorry. A rescue organization has a collective great deal of experience and will also always take a dog back for life, but they will also work with you to make it work and make sure it works from the START. A reputable rescue is the best course of action for many situations, and beyond that, finding a well respected show breeder is the second best.

UCgradmary · June 26, 2007, 11:03pm

So Princedog, what would you choose and where do you think they can find what will work for them?

alwaysamom · June 26, 2007, 11:29pm

It’s obvious that some of you have strong feelings about ‘doodles’ but come on, the hostility isn’t helpful to anyone, including the OP. So you don’t like them, fine. There’s no need to belabor the point. Do you have this hatred towards all ‘mutts’?

I will say that the only people I’ve ever heard call doodles ‘designer dogs’ are people who are denigrating them. It’s also incorrect, and unfair, to make statements like “these dogs are not even particularly well-bred”. There are legitimate, reputable, honest, good breeders of doodles, just like there are of every kind of dog, and yes, there are undoubtedly some bad ones, and again just like there are of every kind of dog. To portray every individual who breeds these dogs as some kind of money-grubbing, dishonest, despicable puppy mill breeder is wrong. Seriously, people, are you honestly dog lovers? You sure aren’t coming across that way.

Now, back to the OP: if you are interested in looking for information on possible rehomes, check this forum:

<a href=“http://disc.server.com/Indices/141437.html[/url]”>http://disc.server.com/Indices/141437.html</a>

The people there should be able to help you. I’ve seen a few discussions over the years there about rehomed pups. I still think that these friends should investigate a trained companion dog, whatever breed they choose. There are probably organizations in their area which could assist in that regard.

Princedog · June 27, 2007, 12:18am

As I beg people to consider rescuing? They are mixes. This is not really mean to say. I have nothing against the dogs themselves as they presumably didn’t breed and market themselves. I do have a problem with “designer dogs”, yes.

I have no idea what saying anything at all about people (most breeders are people IME) means we don’t love dogs, but okay. These dogs are not particularly well bred any more than any other mutt. Nothing wrong with that but that does not equal “will live longer” and this was my point.

It depends on your definition of “good breeder.” I do not support any breeding beyond the strictest show breeding, i.e. to further a breed. This includes breeding only dogs who have finished championships, and only breeding one litter of them a year. Not advertising because you have the dogs placed before breeding. Spaying and neutering all “pet quality” dogs resulting from the litter. Guaranteeing taking the dogs back at any point in their life. As people have mentioned, breeding mixes usually falls under “back yard breeding” people who are usually well intentioned but are breeding their pet with another somewhat random pet, without regards to complementing temperament, etc, as these animals will not be evaluated in show.

This is just my experience and my opinion. I realize of course that not everyone agrees. I cannot make everyone agree, but for the purposes of this thread I do not feel particularly compelled to lie or misrepresent my opinion. I am neither a rescue, nor a purebred enthusiast, nor a breeder of any kind of breed. My qualifications are only that I have spent a great deal fo time researching the plight of companion animals in the US. I have done some rescue work. I am not attempting to misrepresent myself here so I will lay it all on the table.

My reasoning for this is that at this point upwards of ten million companion animals are euthanized each year. There is often a conception that these animals are “aggressive” or that they “must have done something to be given up.” This is false. Most of these dogs are absolutely delightful and a reputable rescue organization can oftentimes match you up with a good one. However if that is not the way people want to go, oftentimes the kinds of breeders I have mentioned above are more qualified to help you in your search than someone who is breeding mixes. I am not saying people who breed mixes are all bad people, I am sure many are well intentioned, however they are probably doing it to make money and IME it is not the best channel for such a venture as the one described.

Princedog · June 27, 2007, 12:54am

The parameters are a small, but golden looking dog, correct? It makes a big difference if they think they can consider dogs that are not very golden looking or have various degrees of resemblance to Goldens. For example someone suggested a sheltie, which is furry and can be Golden, but doesn’t look exactly like a Golden. However even if they are very specific about a small golden looking dog I think they can find one.

I would look for a 1-2 year old dog. This is still very young, but it’s adult size and appearance will be known, and so will the temperament. It may be more hyper though. However if they are prepared to handle that then I think they certainly can, it just takes some more exercise with a younger dog for some of these dogs. Of course some are couch potatoes from the get-go. They may want a playful or more rest ful personality and this is where a dog about 1 yr old can be a benefit because temperament is known, allowing the dog to transition seamlessly into the home. And since noise sensitivity can be an issue IME with certain conditions, you will know if barking habits have been developed.

First off, there are some “doodle” rescues (sorry my internet is blinking in and out which is making it hard to get all the links). This is a good place to start, they will probably answer emails that can point you in a better direction:

<a href=“http://www.poomixrescue.com%5B/url%5D”>www.poomixrescue.com</a>

Also a Golden rescue may have mixes. <a href=“http://www.petfinder.com%5B/url%5D”>www.petfinder.com</a> is one of the best resources for contacting rescues and sorting through dogs. Here is a small, young, Golden mix in my area:

<a href=“http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8092804[/url]”>http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8092804</a>

Not all rescues list on PF or update their pages though, so another good way is to put for example “golden retriever rescue” into google. They may be able to direct you to a breeder, or someone in their organization may breed themselves.

If they are willing to consider dogs (or meet - some rescues can do a home visit with the dog, and also many Petsmart and Petco stores host adoption events on the weekend where you can go meet lots of dogs - they could maybe try this, if they feel it would go well, but in their situation the home visit might be better because it would be calmer and more normal. But I have seen either way work for families in this situation, it really depends on the individual’s tolerance level). You can check at your local pet stores for times, but it is usually weekend mornings to early afternoon. Ours run about 10-2 I’d say, and Friday evenings.

I am sure they have looked into registered Therapy dog organizations. The problem with this is that there are waiting lists that can be years. So I understand why they are trying to find a good temperament trainable dog by themselves and I am not against this, I think it is very doable. However I usually say a normal search for the “right” dog can take six months if you have variable conditions and parameters, and time beyond that depends. Even if they go with a Golden/poodle mix puppy, I would still expect it to take some time, and if they can find a dog 1-2 years old this would probably be their best bet.

Again the breeds I would recommend most would probably be small hounds but I understand if they are set on a Golden looking dog. If they are willing to expand though there are a lot of other links I can find you, just tell me. I can also try to get more Golden information.

I found this site, I don’t know anything about them personally though, looks like they’re more “expanded” in many ways though, with the people they work with:
<a href=“4 Paws for Ability: Home - 4 Paws for Ability”>4 Paws for Ability: Home - 4 Paws for Ability;

<a href=“http://www.athenscaninerescue.com/rescuegroups.htm[/url]”>http://www.athenscaninerescue.com/rescuegroups.htm</a> - one of the links says “paws of Athens” is a group that works with disabled people but the link is broken, at least temporarily. I am trying to find another one. Not sure where it is though.

<a href=“http://www.bestfriends.org/atthesanctuary/humaneeducation/crdisabled.cfm[/url]”>http://www.bestfriends.org/atthesanctuary/humaneeducation/crdisabled.cfm</a> - this article may have some insight, I didn’t read the whole thing though, it is a about a program in Arkansas that matches mentally disabled people with dogs.

I will send this now but I am still searching for more links.

edited because “rest ful” gets asterisks

UCgradmary · June 27, 2007, 1:40am

Thanks so much. It’s correct that getting a dog through an organization could take years. I honestly believe they would be open to all suggestions of medium sized dogs.

Princedog · June 27, 2007, 1:49am

<a href=“http://www.vachss.com/help_text/animal_comfort.html[/url]”>http://www.vachss.com/help_text/animal_comfort.html</a> - this has a lot of good links broken down by area for groups that would with therapy dogs.

They say they get some mixes including Goldens (So Cal): <a href=“poodleclubsocal.com”>poodleclubsocal.com;
Also they may want to get on file with a group like this because they if they don’t have a dog for you they will sometimes alert you if they get one or hear of one. A lot of dogs never “go public” because they go to someone with an existing file. But I am just guessing from your name they are from Cali. Many rescues mostly work locally or you have to travel there, but if you aren’t comfortable sharing their location I understand.

Here is a Nor Cal poodle rescue link:
<a href=“http://www.norcalpoodlerescue.net/[/url]”>http://www.norcalpoodlerescue.net/</a>

Also about your earlier question, yes 30-40 lbs seems reasonable in terms of safety. Even smaller (25) could be okay depending on the dog. Some breeds are just “sturdier”. Of course his parents will know best but if they are even considering dealing with an animal he probably has a history of dealing with them gently.

Some Goldens listed in NorCal: <a href=“http://www.golden-rescue.org/cgi-local/doglist/doglist1.cgi[/url]”>http://www.golden-rescue.org/cgi-local/doglist/doglist1.cgi</a>

The third listing, is a small young male named Frodo.

<a href=“http://www.homewardboundgoldens.org/available_goldens/available_goldens.htm[/url]”>http://www.homewardboundgoldens.org/available_goldens/available_goldens.htm</a>
Nothing stands out for me here but it’s worth checking into later or maybe getting on file.

Princedog · June 27, 2007, 2:02am

Oh this is good. It will really expand their search. However they don’t have to necessarily give up on what they want, it is still good to have guiding parameters. Otherwise you can get overwhelmed and find yourself wanting every cute dog that isn’t necessarily the best match

I would still suggest they contact some of the groups that look promising for the small Golden looking dog. These people will be able to tell them definitively the frequency of that kind of dog coming in, ad whether they can do anything to accommodate the request, or if they have any info to pass along. Lots of rescues network with other breed specific people so they can be a good resource.

Here’s an all breed rescue in So Cal: <a href=“http://www.allbreed-rescue.org/[/url]”>http://www.allbreed-rescue.org/</a>
All breed rescues can often be the most accommodating in my experience. They have a variety of dogs and sizes and usually know some about each kind. They also have a lot of mixes that are completely unidentifiable but may work perfectly.

I have worked with an all breed rescue in the past and they get a lot of hound mixes which make really good pets. It seems like they transition into homes really well - they are laid back and bond easily, which makes them good for some tougher situations. However people don’t seem immediately attracted to them always. Maybe because they don’t know many. This is why I suggest maybe one member or all of the family taking a trip out to a local adoption event to see some of the dogs and see if a certain kind speaks to them. The trouble with some dogs like shelties is they are attractive and look like little Lassies, but they are slow to bond. This is okay if you don’t mind that as they eventually form a very strong bond, but I think this family would like a more immediate bond as a setback that their son can’t understand could undermine his confidence in dealing with the new dog. It makes sense to us that the dog needs to get used to everything, but it may not make sense to him.

Also you never know what dog you will click with. The organization I worked with had a blonde terrier, cute and nice enough dog, but she was pretty wild generally! No one looked at how this dog was acting and wanted her. Well after most of the summer, still no one is even interested once they spend a few minutes with her, she would kind of ignore them in her pursuit of more exciting things. Well one day in walks this couple with their son who is disabled (more serious than the man you are talking about I think - this was physically and mentally). Their son insisted on going over to the terrier and as soon as he did this dog was just perfect with him. He wouldn’t consider any other dogs and the dog was sensing what he needed and responding. They walked out with him clutching the leash and to my knowledge had good success once home. So you never know when you will really find the dog that speaks to you, they had been looking for awhile.

UCgradmary · June 27, 2007, 3:28am

I learned so much reading your links. It now sounds silly to me for them to think of a puppy. Knowing the personality is everything. I’m really glad I learned this! I think they need to start Saturday visits to animal shelters until he bonds with a dog. Anay advice on choosing where to look? Do you think the online descriptions of the rescue dogs are mostly accurate?

MaryTN · June 27, 2007, 8:18am

Rather than visiting shelters where little may be known about the dog’s personality, I would recommend rescue groups where the dogs live in the foster family’s house. Only then will you know what the dog will do when the doorbell rings, the vaccuum’s on, etc. And you are right about a puppy! “High energy” is in the definition of puppy. So is biting, jumping, chewing, soiling, etc…

Finding the right pet for a special situation is like matchmaking. It will take time and patience.

On a side note, my H was talking with a law enforcement officer this week who works with dogs. They don’t care about previous training, which surprised me. They have various temperament tests they do. Drug dogs should be willing to chase a ball and play forever. Bomb dogs need to be focused but much more mellow. They evaluate dogs around 18 months of age and get most of them from shelters.

dmd77 · June 27, 2007, 10:01am

I’ve taken a lot of 8 to 10 year old kids to all-breed conformation shows and to agility trials (where many different breeds compete). It’s been my experience that kids (and the young man in question is one) think they like a particular breed–until they see all the different breeds available. A neighbor’s daughter, for example, who thought poodles were the best, now thinks she wants a Boston terrier. Big difference!

I would suggest that the family focus on what they want from a dog, not on the looks. They want a long llife and a healthy one, which means they’re looking for certain breeds right there. Does the son enjoy playing fetch with the dog? If so, look for a retriever! There are breeds that are NOT ball obsessed. Is the highlight of his life teaching the dog tricks and games to play? Is he very active? That could be a border collie. And so on.

Contacting an experienced trainer of multiple breeds could help them pick out the right dog from rescue organizations or a shelter, and the money would be well spent. The family also might enjoy working with the dog to train it for some particular skill, such as search and rescue or tracking, which would be useful—as well as being accessible to the son.

As for the “doodle” breeders and other breeders, I adore dogs, and it is only recently that I’ve come to understand how much difference a good breeder makes in the life of a dog. I have one dog that came from a good breeder, and one that came from an excellent breeder, and frankly, the differences are obvious–now that I know what I’m looking for. The excellent breeder spent almost two years looking for the right stud dog for her girl… and the good breeder used what was handy.

UCgradmary · June 27, 2007, 3:11pm

dmd, what you say is just what I learned through my research yesterday, it’s as silly to look for a dog using looks as a main consideration as it is to choose a spouse that way!

weenie · June 27, 2007, 3:39pm

I agree with dmd (again). I have one dog from a not-so-great breeder, and one from an excellent breeder, and, although I love both dogs, there really is no comparison. My little male (the well-bred one) is so patient, smart, trustworthy and fun - he’s pure joy. My female, well, let’s just say, she requires a LOT of patience on our part.

By the way, I do not think you can call any doodle dog “well bred,” and here is why: The point of dog breeding is conformance to accepted standards of a known breed. This includes physical attributes, but also that their personality fits their breed, as well as their proclivity towards their historical job. Additionally it means careful avoidance of known diseases in a breed.

alwaysamom · June 27, 2007, 5:27pm

weenie, I understand the meaning of well bred to which you’re referring, and I’m not going to argue semantics with you. My point is that probably 99% of dogs are not ever going to be “shown”, or even participate in something like agility trials. Those that are should obviously conform to accepted standards of their breed. Most people want a dog as a pet, not for the purpose of showing them. So yes, maybe my doodles are not as ‘well bred’ as my pure bred other two but who cares? I love all four and each has its own distinct personality, with positives and negatives. Not all dogs that are pure bred by excellent breeders are perfect. If that were the case, there wouldn’t be the need for all the rescue organizations across North America. Having owned dogs my entire life, and having grown up in a home with a parent who is a vet, the situation with pure bred vs. mutt isn’t as black and white as some would like to paint it.

UCgradmary · June 27, 2007, 6:13pm

This is a difficult question, but what do you think one should look for in a dog who will be a companian for the mentally disabled? I think intelligence and calm are important, does this translate into a dog described as submissive?

weenie · June 27, 2007, 6:16pm

alwaysamom: I agree with you on many points. The Best dog, by far, in my family was a stray mutt my sister collected from the pound. He was an absolutely amazing animal and the best dog we’ve ever known. And she got a real deal on him for $50. ;)

weenie · June 27, 2007, 6:19pm

UCgrad: NO! In fact, I’d watch out for the submissive dog. (Similarly, I’d watch out for the wanna-be alpha dog - they are at two extremes.) I have a very submissive dog, and she is not a good dog. I love her though - really I do!!! - but she has fear issues that can translate into aggression at the drop of a hat.

What you want is a happy, secure, well-adjusted, but Confident dog. Experts at the pound (and at our pound they really do “know” the dogs) or a top-notch breeder will be able to spot those characteristics in a pup. Does that make sense?

dmd77 · June 27, 2007, 9:08pm

Alwaysamom: while I agree that one may luck into a great dog with a rescue dog or a pound puppy, if one wants to be far more SURE of getting a highly trainable puppy, it is far easier to go directly to a breeder with obedience lines, especially one who will work with the family to find the right dog. In this situation, where a slightly more difficult dog might make things VERY difficult, it might be best.

As an example, I recently helped a friend–age 60, with 5 long-term goldens in her life–get a golden from an obedience/conformation breeder, because she didn’t like what she was seeing from the “family dog” golden breeders. (She described them as “body slamming over-enthusiastic heavily muscled fur balls.”) At a recent walk in the dog park, she said to me “I cannot believe how much easier Ruby is than any dog I’ve ever had. I only have to teach her something once!” I had the same experience with my first puppy from obedience/agility championship lines. She was born knowing how to learn.

cnp55 · June 27, 2007, 9:50pm

One of the good points about working with a breeder who knows her lines is that sometimes they have a dog available that needs rehoming for some reason or another. Said reason may not have any negative connotations about the dog – just the family situation changed. Or the dog was being grown out for show, and for some reason doesn’t fit with the breeder’s program anymore. You can get a nice dog, perhaps with a good bit of training already, and the breeder knows exactly what sort of a dog she is trying to place and whether it’s a good match.

(My dog is a Sheltie whose purpose in life was to be a breed champion, and a agility and obedience champion. She went slightly oversize, was dropped from the show and breeding program and I got her at a year old with basic obedience training and started on agility obstacles. Her littermate went on to be the breed champion, but only managed an NA in agility. My dog competed in both obedience and completed her AX and AXJ agility titles.)

Princedog · June 27, 2007, 11:10pm

I think you have potentially a spectrum of personalities that will work. Like people, all dogs have their quirks and their own preferences and ways or seeing things and reacting. So it’s hard to tell. Like in my story, the dog intuitively knew what to do with the disabled member of her new family, and knew how to make him happy. But when someone else random tried to interest her, she wasn’t so interested.

I would not go out looking for a submissive dog. That doesn’t mean that a dog being labelled submissive has no chance of working. If my dog were to go into that situation, he is shy and would probably be taken as submissive, however he is high spirited with those he knows and would probably do fine in the situation you are looking for. There is something rescues usually call “foster to adopt” - if they have a dog you think will work, you can foster it for awhile, and if someone makes an offer you have the first right to refuse if you do want the dog yourself, or if not, then the dog would be adopted by that person. This is a great way to have a trial period of sorts. The rescue I have worked with has a facility to accommodate foster overflow, so they can even let you foster overnight just for one night, and then if you want try longer, you can.

Calm may be important, it depends on how much their son will want to play with the dog. If he wants a dog who will catch a ball, etc, then you don’t want a dog who just wants to lay down and snuggle. Intelligence, can go either way, the truth is unless you are really going to be serious about training, you can dig yourself a hole with a very intelligent dog. I would not really be using that criteria if they are not planning to do any heavy training. Most dogs are smarter than people think, there are a few breeds who catch on quicker because of working genes but honestly this can also mean they will just find a couple more ways to terrorize you, which is my little sheltie’s main goal in life probably (he is REALLY smart but if I get off on that tangent I will write you a book about how he is quite possibly the most accomplished and exquisite animal ever to walk the earth )

I think you really need to get out and meet dogs though when you look. Also it’s hard to describe a dog’s whole personality, so while the online descriptions are generally accurate (it doesn’t pay to lie, because you don’t want dogs bouncing around and coming back), it’s obviously not a place where you’re going to say “really wild and annoys most people” instead of “high spirited”. You know? You’re always hoping there’s going to be a match that just works. Usually, IME, the dog people THINK they want or like, is in reality not the kind of dog they should be getting. This partially has to do with the choosing for looks phenemenon, but also, a lot of people do LIKE the idea of a playful puppy, and they swear they are going to get more active. But they get home, life goes on, and reality they realize they are not an active person. You really have to pick based on what your lifestyle IS, not what you want it to be. A dog should transition smoothly into your already existing life; it isn’t a way to change it. So the one thing they want to avoid is saying, well we think this one will be a calming influence on X, or this one will make X want to go out back more. If he is a “medium” sometimes active, sometimes not person, pick the medium sometimes active, sometimes not dog.

Golden Doodles Anyone?

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