Golden Doodles Anyone?

<p>The problem with variation is shown in this example:
“I need a dog that won’t shed and is hypoallergenic.”
“Well,” says the doodle breeder, “some of that litter won’t shed and won’t be allergenic.”
“How do you know which ones?”
“Oh, I can’t know.”</p>

<p>I agree that there are good breeders (again, note the distinction between good and excellent) that breed multiple litters in a year. However, I don’t know any excellent breeders who manage more than three litters a year, and even those are pushing their luck.</p>

<p>As for showing in conformation and performance, how does a breeder know if they’ve met their goals if they don’t have standards they are trying to meet? “Good family dog” is a pretty vague definition to my mind. </p>

<p>The “average pet owner” who doesn’t have time to train needs an easy-to-train dog MUCH MORE than the person who is obsessed with dog sports (like myself). Really. I don’t mind training an hour every day, but the people up the street with the lunatic Bearded Collie… they don’t train the dog at all, and it shows. If it was easier to train, liked its people a bit more… perhaps it wouldn’t lunge, barking its fool head off, at every person who walks by. Perhaps their kids wouldn’t be scared of it.</p>

<p>TO the OP - do you think it’s mostly looks that make the golden-doodle so appealing to your friends? I agree with those who think a smaller female golden (with that natural love of fetching) might be a great choice. I’d also suggest talking to someone who specializes in obedience or therapy dogs, or someone very experienced in rescue. Of course it would be great to adopt a dog from the pound, but in a case like this I think an experienced breeder would be the safer bet.</p>

<p>Have they ever taken their son to a dog show or obedience trial? He might just click with a certain breed they haven’t seen or considered yet. I love shepherds and herding dogs (Belgians especially- we have a malinois) but also know they are sensitive, active, and not for everyone. Shelties might be a breed to consider as well-- they can range from reserved and quiet to busy and yappy, but a good breeder will know their dogs’ tendencies.</p>

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<p>Yes, I don’t support breeding mixes. I am sure some people are well intentioned but I still cannot and will not support it under any circumstances. I am very opposed to the manipulation in breeding bull dogs that can’t be birthed naturally due to massive upper bodies, especially since we know these animals often have poor health and die of massive heart attacks early because of their physical traits. But that’s OT. </p>

<p>I will be labelled someone “denigrating” mixes or bragging about pedigreed dogs I guess. Fine with me, my opinion doesn’t change. Odd, though, since I will never own any kind of dog from a breeder (therefore it wouldn’t have any known pedigree anyway), and dedicate free time to saving the lives of those unpedigreed dogs. You’d find that a lot of people who will never own a dog from a breeder or a purebred dog would also feel the same way about intentional cross breeding. That doesn’t mean they’re purebred enthusiasts or snobs about their pedigreed animal. </p>

<p>Like I said, I see the benefits to continued breeding, but only under very, very narrow terms and conditions. If someday it comes to that we aren’t euthanizing ten million animals a year, then whatever. Breed new mixes away. But in our current climate, I have to object to it. That doesn’t mean I hate dogs or hate your dog; like I said earlier, presumably they didn’t breed themselves. It also doesn’t mean that there aren’t well intentioned breeders, but as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and truly, we do have plenty of lovely people, seriously very nice people, who are just misguided IMO and are perpetuating the cycle of inhumanity. It’s our ethical obligation as humans to treat animals humanely; right now, we are not treating many companion animals the way they should be treated. We have a duty to fix the mess we created, not turn a blind eye and say “it’s sad but…you should still support this because otherwise you hate mixes.” I’m sorry but that’s a guilt trip, and I DON’T hate mixes, I never have, and all the behavior I exhibit is to the exact contrary of the statement. This is just the way it is. I can’t stop anyone from buying any breed they want. I will offer my opinion. Maybe it will change someone’s mind, maybe it won’t, but like I said this is caught up in a lot of emotional stuff so I basically don’t expect it to. Typically people don’t change until they see the problem firsthand and like I said upthread, neither did I. But it’s a powerful statement when you do. I am very set in my beliefs here and I have seen the “evidence to the contrary”, it still hasn’t changed my opinion.</p>

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<p>If they’re willing to go for a dog about two, then they will drastically up their chances of getting a sheltie with the extremely sensitive tendencies, that doesn’t act like it’s constantly on crack. But you still have to be careful. Our current little guy (while tiny and extremely attractive even in terms of shelties) is five now and still rather odd at times, just starting to get a little more in control, but I doubt he will ever fully be. Our other sheltie was much more mellow and only barked when there was a direct threat she saw (not randomly at a throw rug while dragging it across the floor). But a few times Prince has been around children or people with special needs and he has been very still and gentle and sensitive - they are very good at reading moods. However I’m just not sure he could be that way 24/7. I would say in no uncertain terms, you cannot get a puppy in this situation if you want a sheltie. They would need to be old enough to have developed their personality. Prince was the runt of the litter and never barked as a baby, but once he grew and was less intimidated, boy. He might as well be a large furry Jack Russell. He is incredibly sweet and sensitive at times though, it is just that he would probably seriously frighten the person in the OP. </p>

<p>But many adult shelties are excellent, excellent candidates for this. There are some sheltie rescues that are directed by people who do a lot of therapy work with their shelties, because adult shelties are so trainable and sensitive. But young shelties carry their herding tendencies harder and can be pretty squirrelly. The one problem with a sheltie here is that you would be hard pressed to find ANY sheltie that isn’t reserved with strangers. They won’t bond immediately. This might be a problem for this family as a setback in bonding might hurt the son’s confidence with the new dog. If they could get it so they could foster the dog and see how it goes, or maybe visit a dog being fostered for a couple weeks beforehand to familiarize themselves, it might work out better. Some dogs will immediately bond or at least be very friendly with people. That’s why it’s good to try and go meet some dogs and just see how they react, for a little while before making any final decisions.</p>

<p>To answer some of the issue brought up:</p>

<p>Yes there is variance in hypoallergenic characteristics of doodles, but the good breeders will always let their potential clients know of that possibility and if an individual NEEDS a “hypoallergenic” dog that breeder will steer the person to a backcross (3/4 poodle ¼ lab or golden) or multigenerational doodle (with known low allergenic parents). These breeders usually are experienced enough to make a pretty right on estimate of future coat as far as shedding goes. The shedding coats have a very different texture than the low/no shedding coats. It goes beyond the curly factor. They know which ones are very likely to shed some vs. shed little or not at all (within reason…all dogs lose hair here and there…even poodles can). Some breeders send saliva and hair samples from puppies to potential buyers so the buyer can test their reaction. And if all of that fails and the dog still causes an allergic reaction, they will gladly take the dog back and offer a refund. The breeders who don’t do this are usually the ones who ALSO don’t do health testing and aren’t careful about who they sell to, and all that other low quality stuff. With all that said, I have a coworker who has TERRIBLE allergies to ALL dogs…and this includes poodles. Someone like her hopefully would KNOW better than to assume a doodle would be fine for her. I also know several people who have general dog allergies who do GREAT with their doodles. I realize “other” breeds can be hypoallergenic, but not everyone likes some of the smaller dogs or full on poodles, etc. </p>

<p>Also for the first cross dogs, there are usually enough people who don’t need a low allergenic dog who don’t mind some shedding who are willing to buy those from the litter. It’s not ONLY allergic people who go to buy doodles. Interestingly some of the good breeders I know actually are AIMING their program to produce the low shed doodle with the mild temparement (service dog basically) and are quite successful (of course they breed F1b or multigens).</p>

<p>Regarding training and the need for a “family pet” to be “trainable.” In my opinion MOST dogs are trainable with time and consistency. Yes there is always the odd dog that is out of control, hyper, bouncing off the walls, but when I said the good doodle breeders breed for “family pets” I’m saying that they use breeding dogs that have that type of more mellow temperament. They do seek out breeding stock which do exhibit the easily trained type personality. But even with super mellow parents, you’ll get some puppies that are more difficult than others. Even pure breeds vary and this is why even in a show breeding or in an obedience line…some of the litter will be considered “just” pet quality. </p>

<p>And yet the average pet owner wouldn’t necessarily find an easier dog in a mutt from the pound. I think I tend to not think so highly of the “average” pet owner because so many of the ones I know are terrible at training and/or disciplining their dogs and helping them to become better citizens of their community. I feel like I read SOOO MUCH before getting my first dog (my labradoodle) that I’m amazed when other dog owners I know don’t know or do HALF of what I know is important to do. I can’t help but wonder…don’t people READ? How can anyone enter into ownership of a different species without doing some MAJOR preparation? </p>

<p>One of my good friends recently adopted a puppy from rescue. I went with her to help her out and although she wasn’t sure if she would end up taking a pup home earlier that day, she wasn’t prepared for ANYTHING. I let her use an old crate, gave her a bottle of Nature’s Miracle to clean up accidents, lent her a puppy training book and video, went with her to the pet stores the next day to get more supplies. </p>

<p>Other owners I know think crates look so mean and evil and instead of crating they are willing to come home to styrafoam all over the living room and burst soda cans and who knows what swallowed items that could cause obstructions because “oh I just couldn’t bare to put fluffy in a cage!”</p>

<p>As far as the lunatic bearded collie, while that may be partly breed related (don’t know much about that breed) and partly breeding related, my guess is that they simply aren’t doing their part in training. There are lunatic labs…lunatic weimaraners…beagles…you name it! My dogs would be lunatics too if my husband and I didn’t invest time to train. He trained his border collie to off leash reliability…got his labradoodle to heel on leash beautifully…and I’m working on finishing my labradoodle to off-leash reliability and then I’ll start his labradoodle to get her there. I can walk all three of them without worrying I’ll get pulled down the street (and they weigh a collective 210 lbs or so). I feel so proud when we walk them down the sidewalk and the dogs across the street are pulling on their leashes while ours are walking nicely at our side. That’s not to say I don’t believe in picking the right breed for one’s family. Better to start with a generally recognized as safe family dog than to pick on looks alone. Luckily there are all sorts of combos of looks and personality to fit most people.</p>

<p>To princedog…if you indeed believe that virtually all breeding (including that of pure breeds ) is wrong to a than I think you have a very valid position. I’m not kidding. There are very good arguments to be made regarding the unnecessary act of breeding and the opportunity cost of buying a purposely bred dog. If nobody bought from breeders or ooops litters…they would be forced to go to a shelter/rescue and reduce the pet overpopulation. The problem with that, for me, is that that would necessitate extra legislation and I’m not big on adding more laws. A lot of decent people would lose their livelihood and there isn’t enough money available to enforce an anti-breeding law. Those who breed pit bulls for fighting would continue to do so for example. </p>

<p>I really like to know where my dog came from…I like knowing it was raised properly as a puppy and got purposeful and appropriate socialization. So for me I really prefer to buy from a breeder. I also adore puppies and love all the hard work involved in raising a good dog. Not impossible to find puppies at shelters/rescue, but is a bit tougher.</p>

<p>Anyway, thank you all for the good discussion! I appreciate that although opinions can be heated on these issues, everyone is pretty cordial =)</p>

<p>Thanks to this thread, the young man’s family is in touch with several rescue organizations which are trying to identify a good fit. Thanks all!</p>

<p>UCGradMary: I could not even begin to tell you how happy I am to hear that. Best of luck to their family. </p>

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<p>I agree about the legislation, at this point anyway, although it’s simple supply and demand. The less people who patronize this, the better. I just can’t get on board with throwing up my hands and buying from a pet store because “it’s never going to go away.” Well yeah, if how many millions of us buy into that, then it won’t. Mandantory spay/neuter laws will also go a long way towards helping. Not because people won’t intentionally break the law, but because we’ve seen stricter attention to this gets people who wouldn’t S/N anyway to do it. Mandating it also lowers or completely eliminates the cost and opens up more area for it to be done instead of people being on their own about it and possibly unable even if they wanted to. </p>

<p>Basically, until things change, I refuse to give money for animals to anyone but shelters or rescues. That doesn’t mean people aren’t well intentioned, but there’s a lot of nonsense going on out there and I couldn’t sleep at night knowing what I know and then turning around and supporting the breeding of mixes and more pet quality animals, because of convenience or whatever. I would, quite simply, have to be ashamed of myself. </p>

<p>As far as puppies, a search on <a href=“http://www.petfinder.com%5B/url%5D”>www.petfinder.com</a> brings up hundreds of puppies of all breeds and sizes in my regional area alone. Put in “dog” on the drop down, then “baby” for age, and your zip code (don’t forget to check pic preview too). You will probably be surprised, and many animals don’t even make it to PF, if the rescue doesn’t list there, if they don’t list puppies, or if the shelter is in a high euth period and there’s only a small adoption window. In fact it would be harder for me to get a puppy from the only kind of breeding I can support (show breeding, very occasionally, to better the breed and with strict conditions) because these animals are usually spoken for before breeding and these kinds of breeders therefore do not advertise (it goes by word of mouth). In fact it took my parents many months and they almost drove several states over for a merle (we wanted sable, because of our other sheltie (from a kill shelter when my mom was in college) but it wasn’t a dealbreaker) before we got word that someone had one more sable male that she was going to keep but could sell. </p>

<p>Although this breeder is actually one I could deal with, because she meets all my conditions, my parents never had a dog from a breeder before and probably never will again. Although they knew not to buy from a petstore, they were simply uneducated about rescue and had many misconceptions that have been laid to rest through fostering and getting involved. There are a LOT more dogs out there than you could EVER imagine. Getting involved with this, truly it blew my mind. Five years had you told me this, I wouldn’t have believed it. If my parents ever got another dog they wouldn’t get it from a breeder, because there are sheltie rescues with perfectly good purebred shelties, and because now they know that if you look, you can find these dogs in rescues and shelters. Because we simply don’t need a show bred dog and would have just been happy with any sheltie (and it’s highly doubtful you could even find me one more crazy than ours anyway, although he’s ridiculously well bred, one of the best breeders for decades, if you check out books about the breed you see her dogs in there) Although the shelters HERE aren’t full, there are many huge rescues that transport dogs from the south, places with 100% euth rates, especially cats, in some cases. So they thought if you look at the local shelter, that’s all there is. They didn’t know about the search engines like petfinder, which is a truly AMAZING tool that has done sooooo much for the rescue community in terms of uniting everything.</p>

<p>I totally respect your position princedog. </p>

<p>I’m not for mandatory S/N, but that’s another topic. </p>

<p>I also have to say that I search petfinder several times a week to see what dogs are available…not that I need a fourth dog, but I’m always curious. So I know when there are puppies available and when there are not. Typically we see pitbull or pitbull mix puppies, border collie pups, or blue heeler mixes most often. Really common. None of the above really interest me. I often hear the phrase: if you want a designer dog…go to a shelter!" But at least in my town, it is a RARE FIND to see any standard poodle mix pups! Although I my good friend who adopted recently DID get a poodle mix pup (supposedly an afghan cross x poodle but nobody knows for sure). What I’m trying to say is that if you WANT a certain dog (mix or not) it’s not always easy to find what you want at a shelter. There’s added value in knowing the background and health of parents and ancestors and I’m willing to pay to have that peace of mind. </p>

<p>Nevertheless I DO support adoption from rescue/shelter and I’ve been working on getting my hubby to agree to foster some time in the future when we are down to only two dogs of our own. I would LOVE to help homeless dogs find homes and perhaps, once I’ve gotten more experience training my dogs, to TRAIN foster dogs and make them more adoptable. Anyway, that’s a far away dream and now I’m wayyy off topic =)</p>