<p>I have attended classes at four different universities: an Ivy, a second-tier private, a first tier public, and a third tier public. The worst classroom decorum was at the second-tier private university.</p>
<p>Here is what I observed:
arriving late
leaving early
sending text messages
falling asleep
getting up in the middle of class to go to a vending machine
checking for text messages
surfing the internet on laptops
reading magazines
studying other subjects
eating lunch or dinner</p>
<p>These were not common incidents but were nevertheless too frequent.</p>
<p>Has classroom decorum been on the decline? I would have thought decorum would be better at private universities but that is not what I observed. Is decorum better at more selective universities? </p>
<p>What a waste of tuition! Are there some schools where the behavior is better?</p>
<p>IMO, falling asleep and eating aren’t egregious trespasses.</p>
<p>Many kids fall asleep because they’re working themselves to death trying to balance academics, co-curricular activities, and often work study. And, because their schedules are so packed, and their time so tight, they can’t even sit down to enjoy a meal.</p>
<p>At schools with small class sizes, students may be more self-conscious about the way they’re perceived by their peers.</p>
<p>West Point. Naval Academy and Air Force Academy!</p>
<p>Just kidding.</p>
<p>Actually, at most private colleges and many large public colleges the professors set the tone and either allow for romper room or set strict rules. Take your pick. When you get accepted ask students on campus. </p>
<p>But what you describe is the exception, not the rule. Most professors have ZERO tolerance for bad behavior. Caring professors might ask you why you are sleeping and such…and suggest you change your study habits to get more sleep. But I dont know of many who tolerate walking in and out, snoring or making noise which disturbs others. Unless you are in an auditorium of 300 Chem 100 students at Flagship State Univ. Then all bets are off.</p>
<p>Overall I think it’s a growing and ugly trend at any level of college. Probably worse in large classes as it’s pretty easy to be surfing on your laptop undetected.</p>
<p>I’ve taught at a large state, a top private, and two Ivys (one as a visitor). I think it depends more on the professor, class and perhaps major, than anything else. Perhaps very small schools can develop some unifying norms develop which creates consistency across classes, but for the most part, there is not a degree of uniformity to draw school-wide comparisons in larger cultures. </p>
<p>I have found too that overtime, it appear that the need for more ‘decorum’ rules has grown. Students have a really different set of manners than say 15 years ago, and technology and the sense entitlement to “multi-task” only makes it worse.</p>
<p>You would think upperclass students (sophomores, juniors, and seniors) would know better. A college professor should not have to deal with any of this. Some professors must tolerate it or else students would not be doing it. Parents would be furious if they knew how their kid behaved.</p>
<p>I think there was a scene from a movie (don’t know which one) in which a student gave a dumb answer to a question. The professor handed the student a quarter, told him to call his mother and tell her he would be coming home soon. Something like that. I guess professors are not that strict anymore.</p>
<p>General civility in our culture has gone down hill, along with increased technology distractions, and universities treating students like ‘customers’…ones who rate professors when they class is over…so the entitlement mentality is further fueled. I know professors who are ‘afraid’ to ban laptops in class because of the backlash. </p>
<p>Frankly I assume my students are coming into class as responsible adults and that they were taught basic manners of professionalism by their families and prior schools. I expect them to behave as they would in a meeting with their boss. Its not always the case so I have had to resort to various rules. I now ban laptops in my class for example and have been known to ‘answer’ a students’ cell phone when it has rung in class :).</p>
<p>Based on what we observed, this isn’t a significant issue at LACs. Classes are generally smaller which means your behavior will be noticed and commented on. Group norms are stronger. Your grade usually depends at least in part on participation. And the faculty are there because they like to teach undergrads and do it pretty well. Which doesn’t mean people don’t sneak a look at their text messages…but its a lot less blatant.</p>
<p>There was a high level of decorum at Cornell. The third tier public was a SUNY school. The first tier public was a state flagship (not SUNY) and the decorum was pretty high there, too. They were all pretty large schools but the class sizes were not that large in most cases…maybe 30-40 students. I should say that the offenders comprised a small minority but they were annoying. Some parents are not doing their jobs (teaching children the social graces). Behavior was better at my old high school.</p>
<p>It’s not just at colleges. I’ve observed most of the behaviors that the OP lists among my young-adult co-workers. Three young women have been fired from my department in the last year – not for poor performance, but because they couldn’t seem to get to work, stay at work, or pay attention to their duties while they were at work.</p>
[quote]
Your grade usually depends at least in part on participation. And the faculty are there because they like to teach undergrads and do it pretty well [\quote]</p>
<p>I think a small school with small classes helps. Though not entirely. I teach in a business school- all the courses rely quite significantly on class participation. Even at big state school, I never teach more than 30 students per class. And like most of my colleagues, I care tremendously about teaching and doing well in the classroom.</p>
<p>Thomas Aquinas College (CA)–dress code for class and meals, all classes are round table discussions with 15-19 students–grades based on participation, must address other students as “Mr./Miss Smith” during class. Can’t imagine any school more formal or polite.</p>
<p>My daughter thought students were generally attentive and well-behaved in classes at Rice. At Penn it depends on the size of the class. Lots of texting and iPhone playing in larger classes.</p>
<p>Also, was the OP attending class with undergraduates? Graduates? Night school? Certificate programs? More information is needed.</p>
<p>Some of the txting problems are everywhere, when their friends txt them without concern they may be in classrooms. Kids don’t turn off their cellphones, which if I was a professor would insist that they do. Offenders would be given a silent and overbearing GLARE for first case problems, then if it continues a public request to turn off cellphones and third offenses asking the student to leave the class and not return until they can respect the rights of others who choose to come to class to learn, reminding them of the “hourly cost” of each class. </p>
<p>Please explain how you were attending all these schools as a student. Thanks.</p>
<p>The classes I am talking about were all undergraduate classes. Some were night classes and some were day classes. The nighttime classes at the SUNY school had a lot of adult part-time students who worked during the day but they were pretty respectful except they would sometimes eat snacks during class.</p>
<p>Some students had poor attendance which is a whole other issue. Poor attendance and poor attention say something about motivation and interest in the subject matter. There are a lot of students sitting in college classrooms who just don’t belong there IMO. Yet they succeed and graduate. When do they learn anything? I guess they must study on their own. </p>
<p>I think classroom time is valuable, or should be valuable. Is it right that students should be able to succeed without taking full advantage of classroom instruction?</p>
<p>There are different kinds of classroom instruction. Group projects can provide a break in a lecture class but often one or two students wind up doing most of the work. How much should faculty try to entertain students with poor attention spans? Does this water down a class? I think so.</p>
<p>Agreed in principle. Its a problem in medical school and law school too, I hear. Some students cram and pass the exams. But yes, the classroom is CORE to the learning experience and if they skip class or are daydreaming/sleeping/snoring/socializing/txting/doing work for other courses, then it is detrimental to not only THEIR learning experience, but that of their classmates and professors as well. Shameful.</p>
<p>I know at some schools, such as Fordham (D1 is a junior there), they have a strict attendance policy. You miss too many classes and a letter goes out and if it goes over the line, the professor can lower your grade by a full letter grade or dismiss you or give you an incomplete (if its due to illness for example). They don’t mess around. </p>
<p>I lean to the right and lean towards law and order and discipline, so a strict rule of attendance and respectful (mutually, of course) decorum are very important. As a parent, I would not tolerate anything to the contrary. Too much money and too much about the student’s future is at stake. I would demand the school clean it up or simply withdraw and transfer. </p>
<p>That is not to say I would want a military decorum in non military schools. Its up to the professor and the school consistent with their mission statement and overall campus culture and regulations. But its worth it for parents and students to inquire ahead of time before they commit to any school to make serious inquiries about the REAL PICTURE on campus. Too many kids suffer buyer’s remorse about two weeks into school (September) when they find out “its not like I thought it was going to be” or they committed sight unseen (unbelievable…but it happens every year…kids who show up and see the school for the first time on move in day!!!) </p>
<p>Parents and students are customers and have rights…to demand EXCELLENCE from the faculty and administration…but they also have responsibilities to contribute to a healthy learning and living environment. </p>
<p>I know a story of a private school in Vermont where on a tour the student and parents saw kids smoking marijuana OPENLY on campus. Its a serious problem in California, I hear as well. Outrageous. I wouldnt send my kids to college in California if my life depended on it. Just my opinion.</p>
<p>Great discussion. I wouldn’t be too quick to generalize about all California schools, however. My kids all went (go) to a private school where classroom decorum is discussed from day one…the kids are told they must keep their eyes on the presenter (in an assembly with a guest, for example), they may not show they are distracted (playing with a friend’s hair was given as an example) and need to be respectful. Interestingly, kids are allowed to have their cell phones but they must be silenced during class–they are permitted to use them during breaks, lunch, etc. My kids also attend religious school. Last year, D3 told me that kids would text during class all the time; in fact, while the teacher was presenting, kids would be texting to other kids IN THE SAME CLASS and definitely not about whatever was being taught. New head of education this year and cell phones have been banned completely–if they’re seen before the final bell rings, they’re confiscated. I’m happy my kids are learning about classroom decorum early. I know the other posts were all about the university level but I think this kind of training and respect needs to start much earlier.</p>
<p>I think the answer may lie in the SES of the students who tend to populate 2nd tier privates. More than at 1st Tier private, they are entitled and lacking in work ethic… that’s why they can afford, but are not at 1st tier privates.</p>
<p>Take a look at the family income level of your students at the 2nd tier private. I’ll bet 60+% are not on financial aid. What you’ve got there is too high a percentage of spoiled rich kids (family income > $150k).</p>
<p>^ Just another generalized stereotype and I don’t buy it. </p>
<p>On the attendance thing, I do grade on participation but I could not care less if someone comes to class or not. That is too elementary school for me. I am not someone’s mother or 7th grade teacher, I’m teaching adults and I didn’t get a PhD to do roll call. </p>
<p>I focus on rewarding outcomes, not process. If one does well on assignments and exams, it’s not my role to police how they accomplished that feat (other than ensure no one can cheat or plagarize, of course). And if students can do well on those outcomes without coming to class, it tells me that <em>I</em> am doing something wrong! My class is obviously not very valuable to my students and I need to fix that problem. But generally I find that class attendance is highly correlated with doing well on assignments and exams, so that is my focus.</p>