My daughter had a manipulative English teacher in high school. She picked her favorites and definitely played them, never mind the rest. I observed with great satisfaction when, during the following year, she was moved away from the elite high school and put into a pool of teachers to be substitutes. She was around my age and had my first name and actually said to me that I was the only woman she’d ever met with that name. In Brooklyn, NY circa 2013? I don’t think so!
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I’m late to the discussion as I had a houseful of visitors until the weekend. Today was the first day I had to sit down and read. I finished both the books (glad they were both on the shorter side) in 2 sittings. I left “The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie” for the post lunch session which was probably not a great idea as it left me feeling quite disturbed.
I agree with most points brought up by other posters.
“Goodbye, Mr. Chips” is devoid of a plot, is at times sickly sweet and brimming with sentiment but has its interesting moments that could well explain why so many people loved it.
“The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie” has a plot, is dark and is filled with disconcerting moments.
Mr Chips may not be an outstanding teacher, but he is competent though lacking in flair. His pupils aren’t led astray by him. He may not excite in them a love of learning of his subject but he has created a network of old boys that works for him, eg. the (unsolicited) support of the board of governors.
His ritual of having the new students and masters for tea at the beginning of the term is him offering a helping hand to the new and uninitiated entrants. He isn’t looking over them to see which one he can cultivate and make over. He is a kind man intrinsically and was also improved by the short time he had Kathie in his life. His gentle sense of humor is part of what makes him so beloved.
There is no villain, even Ralston, the headmaster who felt Chips was dated in his teaching methods is only a minor blip. Chips is able to carry on until he feels he is ready to stop.
The book is no literary masterpiece but is written in a gently rambling, pleasant style that takes the reader quickly over several years of Chips life.
Ms Brodie is not just a bad teacher, she is dangerous. Not only is she under preparing her pupils for their qualifying exams she is inculcating some toxic ideas in young malleable minds. Narcissist is a the prefect descriptor for her.
She is all the more dangerous because she has the perspicacity to see the potential in her pupils. She uses that ability and steers them in directions that satisfy her own thoughts and wishes. The girl whom she encourages to espouse the fascist cause with a tragic result is only touched upon lightly. It seems to me that as the main reason for Sandy’s betrayal it should have been given more air. Until she finds out that Ms Brodie is responsible for Joyce Emily’s death, Sandy is content to sabotage Ms. Brodie’s plan to have Rose become the lover of the man she is obsessed with.
I found it interesting that both the main characters are so unlikable. Can’t say it is a bad book, it was thought provoking and well written. Still, it leaves a bad taste, it also brings up for me schoolroom memories that are best left in the past.
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I read two thirds of Brodie until I tired of it and read a summary of the rest on Wikipedia. Agreed, a tiresome person with an apparent personality disorder and the potential to do great harm. As to how she got away with it: unfortunately lots can go on under parents’ noses even today. There was a huge scandal at my daughter’s high school after she graduated, during which an engineering teacher took advantage of many female students. And more recently, in Brooklyn, at a private school, also girls the victims of a male teacher.
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I think many of us have run across both a Mr. Chips-type and a Miss Brodie-type, either during our own education or that of our children. I think (hope!) the Mr. Chips version is more common, but the Miss Brodie-type stories are usually far more memorable.
Clearly, the experience with Miss Brodie remained with her set throughout their adult lives. Sandy recounts several of the girls – now mature women-- visiting her in the convent to rehash the experience and discuss the betrayal. Seems like a bit of PTSD on the part of the girls.
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Goodbye Mr. Chips was first published in 1934. The Prime of Miss Brodie was first published in 1961. I originally thought that Miss Brodie was published earlier.
Here’s a summary of what I’ve read (definitely not my own ideas because this was all new to me!):
Most literary critics agree that Jean Brodie represents the Calvinist portrayal of God.
She selects girls not on their merit, but as her favorites, similar to the Elects in Calvinism, whom God chooses to go to heaven. Miss Brodie attempts to transform these girls into the “crème de la crème”, similar to the Calvinist teaching that the Elect will be molded into God’s image. Her view of each girl’s future aligns with the Calvinist teaching of Predestination, i.e., that God has already determined a path for every individual.
I thought the predestination element was conveyed most disturbingly in Mary Macgregor’s fate. We learn early on (in a flash forward) that Mary dies in a hotel fire in her twenties:
Back and forth along the corridors ran Mary Macgregor, through the thickening smoke. She ran one way; then, turning, the other way; and at either end the blast furnace of the fire met her.
Then at a later point in the story (flashing back), young Mary becomes frightened by an experiment with flares in the science lab:
Mary Macgregor took fright and ran along a single lane between two benches, met with a white flame, and ran back to meet another brilliant tongue of fire. Hither and thither she ran in panic between the benches…
After learning early what Mary’s fate would be, the later lab scene gave me the chills.
Why, I wondered, was Mary the only one of the set whose pre-destined fate came to pass? Here’s what I found (summarizing various sites):
Literary critics suggest that it is because Mary lacks the personal agency, intellect, and will to rebel against the narrative laid out for her. She is the true vehicle for the novel’s exploration of Calvinist predestination and absolute destiny. The other girls have the strength and ability to exercise free will. Sandy’s religious conversion drives this idea home, as Catholicism, unlike Calvinism, teaches that humans possess genuine free will — the power to choose their actions and consciously direct their lives towards good or evil. (Muriel Spark herself converted to Catholicism in 1954.)
And how does Fascism fit into all of this? I’d say it’s Miss Brodie’s “religion" of choice, with a rigid dogma that mirrors her Scottish Calvinist upbringing. However, as Sandy observes, fascist beliefs can be found anywhere: “By now she had entered the Catholic Church, in whose ranks she had found quite a number of Fascists much less agreeable than Miss Brodie.” (As a cradle Catholic, I can’t argue that point. 
)
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The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie has been called “darkly witty,” but I didn’t exactly find it to be a laugh fest. I think the humor is deadpan, in that the narrator recounts events from the absurd to the horrific with the same sober “no-comment” tone.
I did laugh at a few lines. The description of Cologne Cathedral:
Miss Brodie had shown them a picture of Cologne Cathedral, like a wedding cake, which looked as if it had been built for pleasure and festivities, and parties given by the Prodigal Son in his early career.
The students’ thoughts about learning from the (genuinely) French teacher:
A mademoiselle with black frizzy hair, who wore a striped shirt with real cuff-links, was pronouncing French in a foreign way which never really caught on.
And all of Sandy and Jenny’s pretend love letter from Miss Brodie to Mr. Lowther, e.g.:
Allow me, in conclusion, to congratulate you warmly upon your sexual intercourse, as well as your singing.
With fondest joy,
Jean Brodie.
By the way, in the end, Mr. Lowther dodged a bullet and got lucky in his marriage to the science teacher Miss Lockhart.
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Goodbye, Mr. Chips was first published in 1933 as a supplement to the Christmas edition in The British Weekly. Hilton had been hired that August to write a 3,000 word piece but ended up turning in the 18,000 word Goodbye, Mr. Chips. It more or less slid under the radar till it was reprinted in The Atlantic Monthly in 1934.
Anyway, knowing its beginnings helps me understand its popularity.
The British Weekly: A Journal of Social and Christian Progress
Founded in 1886, The British Weekly: A Journal of Social and Christian Progress entered the interwar era as a highly influential publication.
The Interwar Shift: Historically, it had been a radical force shaping the “Nonconformist conscience” (liberal, free-church opinion). However, its legendary founder and editor, William Robertson Nicoll, passed away in 1923.
Content: Under the de facto leadership of Jane T. Stoddart, the weekly moved away from aggressive political campaigning and focused more tightly on literary reviews, serialized fiction, and theological reflections adapted to a post-war society seeking healing and stability.
" … adapted to a post-war society seeking healing and stability" seems right. The novella comforted during a time of rapid change.
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I watched clips of the 1939 “Goodbye, Mr. Chips” – too dated. And I watched clips of the 1969 musical version – too silly. But I just watched the 2002 BBC Masterpiece Theatre movie and thought it was very good. It takes some liberties with the particulars of the plot, but the spirit is intact. The brightest part of the film is the brief time of his marriage to Katherine, but I guess that makes sense because it was the brightest part of Chips’ life as well.
Mr. Chips is played by Martin Clunes (of “Doc Martin” fame, if anyone is a fan). Katherine is played by Victoria Hamilton, easily recognizable to anyone who has watched a lot of Jane Austen adaptations. She had supporting roles in Persuasion, Mansfield Park, and Pride & Prejudice.
Free on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubgHwXR3yi8&t=80s
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Thanks for all the interesting commentary on this month’s selections. It’s hard to discuss a classic because for the most part, everything to be said has been said before. I don’t envy current English Lit students who have to search for new takes on old works for their papers!
So we often end up sharing academic research we’ve found, or various historical links, but I enjoy that, too, because I always learn something new in the process.
We can start to choose our December book at any time!
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I have a bad habit of buying books at a faster pace than I can read them. Here are some fairly recent releases that are sitting on my shelf. Anything worth considering?
Good People by Patmeena Sabit
What We Can Know by Ian McEwan
Whistler by Ann Patchett
A Song to Drown Rivers by Ann Liang
Under Story by Chloe Benjamin
Lady Tremaine by Rachel Hochhauser
I am going to veto Under Story just because it is too recent. It came out in early September. I also think that Whistler is pretty new.
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I’ll add Good People to @silverlady’s veto list of Under Story and Whistler. Those three have a notable wait list here. Otherwise, good to go here re availability. Most interested in A Song to Drown Rivers and Lady Tremaine of the other three. What We Can Know sounds good also but possibly not meant for a Nov. read/Dec discussion topic wise. That is NOT a veto though as it’s available and sounds good.
I’m still interested in To the Moon and Back - Eliana Ramage. Disclaimer: I have an advanced reader’s copy sitting here from my librarian daughter. I did check availability through my library systems though and it’s not a problem here.
New titles:
History of the Rain - Niall Williams. We looked into his This Is Happiness but it still has a waitlist. His History of the Rain - written in 2014 - is related through setting etc.
Seek Immediate Shelter - Vincent Yu. On Obama’s Favorite Books of the Summer list. I can get it easily enough through the library, but it is a 2026 book. Others may find it difficult to get a library copy.
(I usually look back at choices we considered last go-round. I rolled my eyes when I realized they were all classics because … of course they were. To the Moon and Back and author Niall Williams were considered time before last. So I guess my only new suggestion is Seek Immediate Shelter.)
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A Song to Drown Rivers by Ann Liang
Lady Tremaine by Rachel Hochhauser
What We Can Know by Ian McEwan
To the Moon and Back by Eliana Ramage
History of the Rain by Niall Williams
Seek Immediate Shelter by Vincent Yu
Vetoes? Additions? Substitutions?
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Looking through my To Read list for things that aren’t sci-fi or fantasy. Jonathan Coe The Proof of my Innoncence looks fun. “A blisteringly funny political critique wrapped up in a murder mystery, from one of Britain’s most beloved novelists.” (Goodreads description)
A Song to Drown Rivers by Ann Liang
Lady Tremaine by Rachel Hochhauser
What We Can Know by Ian McEwan
To the Moon and Back by Eliana Ramage
History of the Rain by Niall Williams
Seek Immediate Shelter by Vincent Yu
The Proof of My Innocence by Jonathan Coe
The list will have to be pared down for voting, but for now, I’m just gathering suggestions (and/or vetoes).
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It’s been pretty quiet, so I’ll go with the above suggestions; however, seven is too many for ranked choice voting. I’m removing Seek Immediate Shelter by Vincent Yu, partly on the basis of Amazon stars (not the greatest criteria, I know) and partly just because I need to reduce the number of candidates.
I added single sentence-no spoiler descriptions below, in case that helps.
In alphabetical order, we have:
History of the Rain by Niall Williams
Confined to her attic bed in rural Ireland, a young woman named Ruth Swain weaves together four generations of her eccentric family’s history while sifting through the thousands of books left behind by her poet father.
Lady Tremaine by Rachel Hochhauser
Hochhauser’s debut novel is a feminist re-telling of Cinderella from the perspective of the twice-widowed stepmother as she fights to secure a future for her daughters in a rigid, patriarchal society.
The Proof of My Innocence by Jonathan Coe
A young woman investigates a murder at a right-wing political conference in this satirical novel blending crime-solving with a sharp and witty critique of modern British politics.
A Song to Drown Rivers by Ann Liang
Inspired by the legend of Xishi, this historical fantasy follows a young woman in ancient China who is trained as a spy to infiltrate a rival court, seduce its king, and bring down the empire from within.
To the Moon and Back by Eliana Ramage
Ramage’s novel tells the story of a Cherokee teenager named Steph Harper over three decades as she pursues an obsessive dream of becoming an astronaut while navigating complex family dynamics, her queer identity, and her Oklahoma roots.
What We Can Know by Ian McEwan
This novel in the speculative fiction genre follows a scholar in a flooded, post-catastrophe Britain in 2119 who hunts for a brilliant poet’s 2014 vanished masterpiece and uncovers dark truths behind its disappearance.
Six is still a lot of choices – especially if we have only six voters. 
But let’s give it a try. It was too hard to eliminate because all the choices are so different from one another!
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Thank you so much for including those summaries of each book.
I’m a fan of “ This is Happiness” , and that’s the only author I recognize.
Sorry to have been so inconsistent, my daughter had her third baby, I was visiting for two weeks helping prior and after, then got sick and believe it was Covid, which I’ve never had.
Sense of smell just coming back…slowly
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I haven’t had a lot of luck finishing the books over the last year or so - I think maybe three times? I usually read the sample on Amazon to see if I like the style and if it makes me want to read more. I’ve discovered several books that didn’t make the CC book club cut but intrigued me anyway.
So three books somewhat grabbed me, one at least didn’t completely turn me off, and two were of no interest to continue. Now to vote…
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Yes, quieter than usual. Thanks for getting us to the needed step of ranked voting. And yes the choices are so different from one another. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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