<p>I can’t see how the “listing” could help. I can see the content (leadership, yadda, yadda) being interview fodder, essay fodder (though it would have to be done well), fodder for any program that called for a non-faculty LOR. However, for education, the competitive male bellydancing thing might do the trick. ;)</p>
<p>For me it would depend on what the applicant said about the frat/sorority on the application. If it were just included in a list of organizations joined I’d view it as neutral. But if the applicant somehow believed or tried to portray belonging to or holding office in a Greek org as some sort of highly-significant personal event or worthy high achievement, I’d probably view it as a minor negative. </p>
<p>In any case having had Greek membership or not would not detract from good grades, or research experience, or high GRE scores. All of which are far more important.</p>
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Why? Do you think a social club with 200 members on campus just runs by itself?<br>
Treasurer is responsible for all payments related in running a house. A house with 50+ people living there has kitchen staff, cleaning staff, repairs of the house, social events to pay for. My kid’s chapter collects 15K(room and board) X 50 people living at the house, and 150 people X social dues (living outside of the house). That’s a lot of money to manage ($1 mill). I don’t think many 20-21 year olds would be up to such task (some 50 somethings probably wouldn’t be able to do it well). President’s responsibility is equivalent to running a small company. He/she must manage relationship with the school administration, national chapter and set guidelines for the members. Some people may look down on the social director position, but how many of us could plan a party for 400+ people and do it well (caterer, decoration, music, drinks, venu). It would take a lot of project management. </p>
<p>D1 was responsible for one of her school’s social events (not related to Greek life). She was given millions to spend for the week. It took months of planning on top of her school work. She was given a lot of compliments for the week, but she said she couldn’t have done it as well if she didn’t have the experience in planing so many social events at her sorority. I wouldn’t be surprised if she was selected because of her previous experience.</p>
<p>There is a lot of bias about Greek life, and my kid understands that. She has on her resume, but she normally wouldn’t bring it up unless someone shows interest.</p>
<p>I “get it”. There is one (frequent to this thread) poster who HATES sororities and finds them useless. I don’t need to read another post saying the same thing.</p>
<p>And what happened to the OP? Gonzo!</p>
<p>I don’t think sorority membership would help nor do I think it would hurt. I think it doesn’t matter when it comes to graduate school applications. IMO what matters most is the ability to do what graduate students are supposed to do (research, writing, and completing required coursework). The most obvious way that graduate admission committees judge this is through GPA and GRE and letters of recommendation.</p>
<p>One additional factor in admissions that I think is critical is having a mentor (I’m assuming that the potential applicant has an excellent GPA and GRE.) The people I know who have gained admission to top graduate programs in their fields, have all had an undergraduate mentor who, beyond writing a very strong LOR, has gone to bat for the applicant, e.g., calling a colleague in the applicant’s department or someone who sits on the graduate admission committee and letting him/her know that the applicant has the qualities that would allow him/her to be a successful graduate student. This was the case for my son-in-law (who was admitted this spring to a doctoral program with funding that’s ranked #10 in his social science field) and for my husband (25 years ago–admitted to the #1 program in his social science field with funding). </p>
<p>Both had undergraduate advisors who were willing to make calls and let people know that they would be a valuable addition to a graduate program. I’m not saying sorority membership is a negative; I think it’s not particularly relevant in the decisions that academics make when admitting a student to a doctoral program in arts and sciences.</p>
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<p>All reasons why being a treasurer or officer in a fraternity or sorority is a great positive for professional grad schools like MBA or Law as those qualities are relevant or perceived as great enhancers by those in those fields.</p>
<p>However, for academic grad programs…especially PhD programs in the Arts & Sciences…not usually considered relevant at best. Moreover, a few Profs who may be reading such apps may view those qualities as negatives due to various reasons ranging from negative frat/sorority stereotypes* to feeling he/she may be too interested in socializing to have the deep focus, interest, and commitment to the field for the length of grad school<em>…especially PhD programs which may take several years. In short…a possible indication of poor fit with the academic grad program/career aspirations.</em>* </p>
<p>Nevertheless, my perceptions on this are more of a YMMV depending on Prof nuanced one rather than a definite negative one mini is arguing. </p>
<p>*I.e.: Too much of a “social butterfly” to spend almost every waking hour living, breathing, and working on courses, oral/written exams and its prep, research proposal, buried in the library/lab assisting Prof and conducting own thesis research, and completing the dissertation.</p>
<p>** Some academic grad school friends in PhD programs or who have recently graduated have likened the life of a PhD grad student to living somewhat of a monastic existence. While there’s some exaggeration, there is something to it from hearing/seeing how many hours they’ve spent in the library/labs doing research for their own theses and advisors’ pet projects.</p>
<p>You know, it’s so funny. When I went to visit my grad schools after being admitted, one thing that a lot of them stressed was the outside opportunities associated with their schools. Many of them flat-out said that they did not want us solely focusing on academic work. They wanted us to take advantage of the numerous other opportunities that the school/area has to offer. The Michigan SPH dean told us in particular to spend time with our families and take breaks during the year. </p>
<p>Most of my PhD friends seem to believe that they have a full time job (plus extra hours) doing what they do rather than an obsession with it. Definitely nothing close to a monastic lifestyle.Med school friends have a different take.</p>
<p>“Nevertheless, my perceptions on this are more of a YMMV depending on Prof nuanced one rather than a definite negative one mini is arguing.”</p>
<p>Don;t misread me: I NEVER said membership or office-holding in a sorority is a negative. (Because I don’t feel strongly about that one way or the other.) I NEVER even said that talking at length about how the experience of the sorority would result in better performance in the graduate program would be a negative (because I don’t think that either - though I think it is a risky strategy, and would have to be done really well.) I only answered the specific question that the OP asked by suggesting that “listing” such on the application (without any other words or explanation) could be viewed negatively (slightly and briefly). And then the faculty member would be on to what really matters.</p>
<p>I haven’t read anything here that would convince me otherwise.</p>
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<p>Of course not, but I just don’t consider running a “social club” to be all that much of a worthy endeavor. Not something worth bragging about - particularly if it is one of those whose primary function appears to be as a purveyor of substance abuse and casual sex. Successfully running one might be seen as a misplaced application of otherwise admirable managerial talent. </p>
<p>The fact that the OP felt the need to ask the question in the first place demonstrates the widespread doubts about the net value of college Greek organizations. There is a reason why those doubts have persisted in the public mind for many generations.</p>
<p>OP- Did you get your question answered?</p>
<p>You know, coureur, don’t judge all Greek systems by Dartmouth. Big, big mistake.</p>
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Do you have any personal experience, or is this just hearsay? Both of my girls are in a sorority and I didn’t see any casual sex or even a lot of drinking. This is getting off topic, but do you think students who are not in Greek life do not drink or have one night stands? When my D goes to a mixer with a fraternity, the fraternity has designated drivers to pick them up and drop them off, and if they catch those drivers have drinks at the party then they do not have mixers with them any more. Could you actually say your kids always had designated driver whenever they went to a party? Greek life isn’t for everyone. I am not sure if I am onboard with its selectivity and exclusivity, but to paint a big brush of it is “a purveyor of substance abuse and casual sex” is saying it with ignorance.</p>
<p>Mum said she listed hers on her application/resume long ago… And she went on to get an MBA from Harvard…</p>
<p>Unfortunately, even at the highest levels of academia, there are going to be people who hold prejudices against students who identify with certain ECs. Like athletics, sororities, racial or gender themed student groups, political organizations and the like. Professors are not above bias based upon ignorance and fear. I’d leave off any such EC unless it was directly relevant to the application or unless leadership was valued (like for MBA programs).</p>
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<p>Public Health graduate programs are closer to professional graduate programs like MBA or Law in attitudes about having a life outside of one’s program</p>
<p>Unfortunately, in academic grad programs…especially in Arts & Sciences, they aren’t usually that encouraging in that respect. Sometimes quite the contrary depending on the Prof who happens to be advising.</p>
<p>" I am not sure if I am onboard with its selectivity and exclusivity, but to paint a big brush of it is “a purveyor of substance abuse and casual sex” is saying it with ignorance."</p>
<p><a href=“Abstract Redirect | NCJRS”>Abstract Redirect | NCJRS;
<p>There are dozens of studies like this one, all with similar results. Doesn’t at all mean that there isn’t the sorority out there that doesn’t feed the sick, cloth the hungry, and heal the naked. Nor that sorority members can’t or don’t learn leadership and other important skills. Nor that all sorority members are skanks. Nor that sorority members aren’t “successful”.</p>
<p>But it is very, very far from hearsay. </p>
<p>I think that’s all besides the point for the question the OP asked. The d is in a sorority, holds a leadership position. Will listing that fact (without any other explanation) help or hurt a graduate school application? For the most part, I think it will be ignored.</p>
<p>There is absolutely nothing wrong to be a prtier and having straignt As, it shows great time mangement skills. D. showed Sorority on her application. It has absolutely no effect. She applied to Med. Schools and the only important factors are college GA / MCAT score + medicals ECs, nobody cared for anything else, except her Minor was the most popular conversational topic during interviews ( to her surprize).</p>
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<p>I’ll tell that to S’s fraternity, which raises well into the six figures every year for a particular charitable event. Their director of philanthropy has as much of a “real job” as any other similar campus organization. Believe me, they only wish they were better as a purveyor of casual sex, LOL.</p>
<p>It’s kind of pathetic that some on here are so closed-minded they stick with the Animal House interpretation of things. Uh, that wasn’t a documentary.</p>
<p>As for seriousness of purpose and graduate schools, all I can say is – my sorority sisters routinely gained entrance to the very top-notch medical schools, law schools, business schools and other similar programs. I mentor some of the women at the house nowadays and they have similar, high ambitions. There’s no lack of intellectualism to be found there. Yes, there are schools where the Greek systems aren’t that way – and that usually reflects student bodies that are generally not all that acccomplished or intellectual.</p>
<p>The data are what they are.</p>
<p>Another sample:
<a href=“http://www.nber.org/papers/w12468.pdf?new_window=1[/url]”>http://www.nber.org/papers/w12468.pdf?new_window=1</a></p>
<p>Fraternity membership is by far the highest risk factor for binge drinking, and sorority membership is by far the highest risk factor for experiencing on-campus sexual assault. It’s not a matter of one campus, a few schools, or a single animal house. And it doesn’t take anything away from frats who raise money, or successful sorority sisters. Or the acquisition of leadership or other skills.</p>
<p>It just is what it is.</p>
<p>Constructively: if you are going to list a sorority/fraternity leadership position on your resume, you may want to elaborate just a bit. For example, you could say:
If you are actually doing some heavy lifting, and it’s not obvious to others just from your title, then you <em>tell people what you did</em>. </p>
<p>Second, there are a few problems with mini’s data. First, it does not appear to control for the institution attended (i.e. you are functionally comparing students at different schools to each other). Second, as my father said, there’s three kinds of kids at college: those who study and don’t party; those who party and don’t study; and those who party and study. Mini is making the noxious assumption that almost all Greek members are the “party only” people, and cites a study that shows nothing about whether or not the frat/sorority students also participate in other activities. Finally, there is also the broad-brush, logical fallacy of “If frats/sororities are more likely to do X, then all members thereof do X, and X is the primary mission of the group.”</p>
<p>Just saying.</p>