<p>Thank you for all of the wonderful information on this forum. I can’t imagine doing this without it!</p>
<p>Many of the schools we’re learning about seem to have incredible arts/theatre/MT departments, and I can definitely see that it is not necessary to go just to NW or CMU or other big name schools for great training and experience. But it does seem given that colleges known for academics will obviously have a lot of courses and people who will make the experience outside of theatre - or the choices if theatre falters - still very valuable.</p>
<p>There have been great discussions about “quality of academics” outside of the MT dept, but my question goes further. Many of these wonderful theater programs on the Big List are at schools that don’t seem to have much of a liberal arts focus at all. What is the intellectual atmosphere really like at these schools? </p>
<p>When we’ve looked at schools in general, there’s usually a red flag that goes up when more than half of the student body is studying either business, health care, education or other “pre-professional” majors. I wonder about a kid who wants a great theatre program and goes to a school like Millikin, Pace, Viterbo, and many state colleges, and finds that the students outside of the arts don’t consistently have typically intellectual interests. If the theatre program doesn’t work out, or if the theatre kid just wants to enjoy other areas of study, do they get frustrated when they can’t find peers or activities around campus that suit them? How likely is it that students transfer from these schools because of this?</p>
<p>It’s interesting that so many of these pre-professional type schools end up having great arts departments. Clearly it seems to be a comfortable combination for a lot of people. I’d love to hear what students’ experiences end up being like once they get there.</p>
<p>Hi Emmybet,
I am wondering what types of undergraduate majors are you looking for? I think of every four year degree as pre-professional. Are you referring to degrees that allow a student to enter the field immediately after a four-year degree as pre professional? If so, MT is one of those. Higher ed is divided into comprehensive colleges, universities, technical colleges, and such. When ratings folks rate they speak of regional colleges, liberal arts colleges, masters granting institutions and national universities. Some schools like to brand themselves as research institutions. What are you looking for?</p>
<p>My D is a jr in HS and probably will want to major in MT, theatre or music. But she’s interested in languages, literature, history, writing - she may end up as a theatre historian or dramaturg, or a director. I think ideally she would want to do her arts major within a liberal arts setting.</p>
<p>That’s why I get a little nervous about a theatre program within a college where most of the other majors aren’t so much liberal arts but professional training in business, teaching, nursing, computers, etc. Some of them really don’t have significant programs in the more traditional academic majors. So if she wants to double major or change majors, she might find herself having to transfer. Or she might not find as many like-minded peers as she’s hoped for.</p>
<p>I don’t have any problem with a career focus in college, but I do think she will want a generally intellectual atmosphere wherever she goes. So I’m just wondering what experience people have had when they’re doing arts in these schools where they’re surrounded by more vocational programs.</p>
<p>Do you mean she is looking for a small liberal arts (or larger) college environment where she also can get solid training in theatre and music? Or is she looking for something else? </p>
<p>Just because school has a large number of students pursuing education, health care, or business majors does not necessarily mean that the atmosphere will be “anti-intellectual”… any more than a school where a large number of students are english, history, and philosophy majors (for example) will necessarily be highly “intellectual”. Every campus will have it’s own culture. </p>
<p>I think the only way she is going to get a sense of the “vibe” on campus is by visiting schools when they are in session. See if she can sit in on classes (non-theatre classes as well as theatre and music classes), talk with students, etc…</p>
<p>If she is a strong student she is bound to find schools that will offer her training and a strong academic environment. I am sure that many people on this board can speak of specific programs she may want to visit.</p>
<p>This is exactly the discussion I was hoping for. I know I sound like I have prejudices - as I guess we all do - but I know we really need advice and help. We know very little about these kinds of programs and almost nothing about most of the schools that have them.</p>
<p>Definitely seeing schools and talking to people at them will be very helpful. My D will make her choices based on how she ends up seeing her needs. I’m glad she’s getting a chance to explore what’s out there - she’s taken several tours and has talked to lots of people. She’s mulling how she wants to fit the arts with more academic subjects, and thinking ahead also to the practical side of post-college. In the next year she’ll know better how to answer your very good questions on what is most important to her. </p>
<p>We live in a small, pretty rural community. Luckily my D gets out and about and has had some very good experiences, but she’s really eager to be in an environment and a peer community that has the same kind of passion and enthusiasm that she does, regardless of their specific interests or their test scores. I guess it’s not really a question of “intellectual” vs. “anti-intellectual,” probably. She has said that she gets tired of the narrow, provincial attitude she commonly experiences. But she also has a real distaste for pretentiousness and an overly competitive atmosphere.</p>
<p>I’m happy to listen to anyone’s descriptions of the personality atmosphere at schools they know, regardless of how “intellectual” it might be. I think personal connections and impressions are going to be key in this process.</p>
<p>I think another side to this is what Kat brought up about credentials - my D is a strong student but not at the “elite” level (she’s about a 3.6, probably high 20s ACT once she takes it). Many of the schools with wonderful MT programs have much lower admissions standards, or much higher. She’ll have a mix once she’s made her list this summer - academic safeties, matches and reaches, as well as schools based on their audition selectivity. </p>
<p>We hear a lot what it’s like for kids who audition into top arts programs without the high grades and scores. What about the kids who are higher academically than the general students at the school, but choose to go there based on the quality of the arts program? What is their day-to-day life like? </p>
<p>It’s a fish-pond ratio question, too, I know. She’ll have to know what her personal choices are in this regard, too.</p>
<p>The questions you are asking are important ones. There is a broad variety of excellent MT programs, BFA programs housed in universities and liberal arts colleges, BFA programs housed in conservatories or arts universities, some that provide for liberal arts in the curriculum and some that are very limited in liberal arts offerings. Then there are the many BA programs housed in universities and liberal arts colleges where liberal arts involvement is greater in scope than in most BFA programs. From among all of these schools, there will also be a great diversity in the level of academic credentials that will be required for admission and in the extent to which students are inversted in their liberal arts education. The bottom line is that regardless of how your daughter wants to approach her theatre studies, there are many fine schools out there that will match the priorities and balance she wants to achieve.</p>
<p>Hopefully, by late winter your daughter will be able to better define what she is looking for. At that point, the school websites can provide a wealth of info to help come up with a list of schools that seem to be a fit. The websites are sort of like peeling back an onion. Student profiles, admissions criteria, program curricula, liberal arts requirements, course catalogs, all can help determine if a school offers what you are looking for. Add in visiting schools and talking to parents and students at specific schools using the school subforums on the MT page here and you can get a pretty good handle on whether aschool seems to be a good match. The bottom line is that if your daughter wants to have strong liberal arts academics as part of her MT experience, there are plenty of schools out there, both BFA and BA, that will provide that as they provide an excellent MT education.</p>
<p>MichaelNKAt’s advice is on target. It sounds like your D may want to focus her explorations on universities and colleges rather than conservatories, though. She will have non-arts, academic options at schools with a comprehensive array of majors, if she decides to change majors or take a number of liberal arts electives or even if she just wants to socialize with students interested in things outside of the arts. Living in the residence halls and actively seeking interesting friends is a great way to keep exploring what else is going on beyond the BFA program!</p>
<p>I have a feeling that the conservatories won’t be on our list. She’s now exploring how she feels about BAs and BFAs, whichever arts she pursues. Those are important distinctions, I’ve definitely learned here, even if you’re at a college or university. </p>
<p>Anyone want to chime in about the college setting for MT/theatre where a majority of students outside the arts are in business/nursing/education, where the academic rigor in general is lower than the typical liberal arts school? Several people have remarked on programs here that are in colleges that fit that profile (at least on paper - when I look up their stats, they have very high general acceptance percentages, often HS GPAs below 3.0, SATs below 550 and ACTs below 20). They say their kids are having a fantastic experience, and I believe it. I’m wondering about how it feels where the intensity of the arts is likely higher than the intensity in the rest of the school (and in the students, possibly). It seems it could be just as problematic in its own way as going to a conservatory where there isn’t the college aspect at all.</p>
<p>My D sounds rather similar to your, although she is planning on auditioning in dance now rather than MT. She ruled out BFAs during her junior year because she wants the ability to double major. She has applied (so I can’t speak to actual climate, since she is now a senior) to programs that on paper and based on predicted test scores put her pretty much in the middle of the mid 50% range. She is retaking her ACTs so she can get into the honors programs at most of these programs. I was rather surprised by this goal as i would not describe D as a particularly studious child, but after compus visits and talking to students in honors and non-honors programs, she felt that she would fit in best in the honors programs. So that may be a route you want to consider for your child.
If you read the descriptions of most of the honors programs they stress open-mindedness, interdisciplinary studies and student driven interests.</p>
<p>It’s wonderful when these kids learn about themselves in this process. It’s very exciting. This is our second time looking at schools, and I really enjoyed seeing my older D figure out what was important to her. </p>
<p>This D definitely wouldn’t want to feel inferior somewhere, but she doesn’t want feel alone at the top in her abilities and interests, either. She’s learned that from many experiences. I like your advice about the “middle of the 50%” range. I guess in the long run we’re looking at safeties-matches-reaches just as in any college search. Auditions make things a little different. But it is true that some of these arts kids do want to think about the other academics and the larger picture at their college. Not that this is “better,” just something that some kids learn about themselves.</p>
<p>Good luck to your daughter! Keep us posted on how things go!</p>
<p>You really can’t pigeon hole the academic level of students in BFA programs based on the type of school in which the program is housed or the academic admissions standards or even the programs offered outside of the theatre department. Even at schools where academics are not part of the admissions process or the academic standards for admission are low, you will find many students who were academically superior in h.s. and based on just their academic profile could have been admitted to extremely competitive colleges or universities. Because of the extraordinarily competitive nature of the audition process coupled with the prioritization often given to the quality of the artistic program, there is a broad diversity of academic qualifications found among students even at a program housed in a conservatory or arts university. In addition, at many, if not most, BFA programs, the curriculum is so structured and the time demands so great that MT students often don’t have much interaction with students in other departments outside of dorm life. A BFA MT students life can be very cloistered within the world of the MT program. What’s really important is for your daughter to focus on what kind of educational experience she wants which will then enable you to focus on schools that will meet her desires.</p>
<p>It is so understandable to want both… if your kiddo is lucky enough to be cast in shows through out the year, it is very very tough to create the time needed for the equal academics. 8am to 12pm for sure 6 days maybe 7. I guess it could be done and even with good grades, but at what cost? What a grind. The physical and mental toll could rob the student of the joy of having such a great MT experience. My kiddo is in the midst of a show and is EXHAUSTED yet thrilled with the whole experience. She does have homework, even in MT & Ballet! She called at 1am (she is east we are west coast) and had just come home from opening night and needed to finish a ballet paper before her 8am class. She had been on the same schedule for several weeks prior…she is auditioning for 3 shows this week.</p>
<p>And don’t underestimate the quality of the education received in a BFA program – it is NOT all performing. My D is a senior at Syracuse, and all through her college years has spent a great deal of time on academics – researching, writing papers, doing projects, etc. – not only for her electives, but for her theater classes as well. And like hushinfazen said, most of this homework began at midnight, after rehearsals ended.</p>
<p>All very helpful perspectives and info, thank you.</p>
<p>I do want to clarify, for the purpose of the thread, that my question is not so much about the quality, intensity or even intellectual nature of the theatre program. I have enormous faith in that. I’m also aware that a student in an intensive program of any kind, and particularly a fine arts degree, will be very busy with and enriched by that program. And I know that selective schools (like Syracuse) naturally will have a vibrant academic atmosphere.</p>
<p>My particular question is about these programs that are within schools where the other programs are not as intense, nor as academic or intellectual. Thank you for the comments about how common it is for very bright and talented students to be in theatre departments at schools where the general educational selectivity is lower than their capacity, and for them to be happy and satisfied! This is the experiential information I’m looking for. </p>
<p>I know most of their time is spent in their own department, especially in a BFA. But some MT programs only have a few dozen students. The other several thousand students will be an important part of the MT students’ world, even with their limited time. Maybe the MT student will be very happy to focus on theatre and not take that many other courses, and certainly if a student thinks s/he might be interested in a double major or switching out of theatre, s/he should try to go somewhere that the rest of the programs also match his or her needs.</p>
<p>It just seems that many excellent programs on our list would be at schools without the academic selectivity or options that my D might want if her situation allows, or changes. Also I’m imagining a safety or two might be at one of these kinds of schools.</p>
<p>Any further discussion of this question of MT being something of an intellectual or academic “island” would be very helpful. I know there are other threads about the quality of academics at schools with MT programs, and of course there are threads about the quality of the MT programs themselves (including academically). Here I’m asking specifically about the schools where it is known that the academics are not very selective or diverse, and what it feels like to be a bright and talented MT student there.</p>
<p>“It just seems that many excellent programs on our list would be at schools without the academic selectivity or options that my D might want if her situation allows, or changes. Also I’m imagining a safety or two might be at one of these kinds of schools.”</p>
<p>Do not assume that a “lower academically selective” school would be a safety. If it is an audition based program, it is not a safety regardless of the level of academic selectivity or traditional academic rigor in L.A. classes. Keep in mind that the acceptance rate in audition based BFA programs is a 3-9 % range, depending on the school, and some of the lowest acceptance rates are at programs housed in conservatory types of schools or colleges/universities that have lower academic admissions requirements. The only real safety is a non-audition program where a student’s academic profile makes the school an academic safety for that student.</p>
<p>“Here I’m asking specifically about the schools where it is known that the academics are not very selective or diverse, and what it feels like to be a bright and talented MT student there.”</p>
<p>In some respects it will feel like the difference between many state supported schools and a highly selective l.a.c. The state school will have a broader spectrum of students than the l.a.c. but the top academic achievers at the state school will be just as academically invested and challenging as the students at the l.a.c. The experience will also vary depending on whether the school is a full college/university (albeit with lower academics) with separate departments for each l.a. area or a conservatory/arts university with a liberal arts department that houses all the liberal arts classes under the same general umbrella. My impression is that at the former, since each department houses a degree bearing program, there will be a greater weight given to the l.a. courses by the students and school while at the latter the l.a. department will be viewed by students and school as more of an adjunct to the degree bearing arts departments.</p>
<p>What you’re saying about safeties is significant and very relevant - maybe the favorite MT program, and a hard one to get into, could be at a college that otherwise would not be an appropriate choice at all.</p>
<p>I think the people who have pointed out that students need to know where they fit along the spectrum are very right. BA or MFA, college or conservatory, full-scale liberal arts or limited academics - these are all important questions, ON TOP of dealing with the auditions. And it’s not just a simple either/or, but all of those mixtures, that will count.</p>
<p>It’s very nice to have all of these helpful and experienced people to bounce ideas off of.</p>
<p>Hi everyone,
I’m a current freshman MT major at Emerson and I shared the same concern as many of you. I wanted to find a school that gave me great musical theatre training as well as a strong liberal arts education. Even though the course load is very intense for MT majors at Emerson, I still have access to the great liberal arts course Emerson offers. As a school, Emerson values a foundation of liberal arts in every program they have. Also, it is very easy to transfer from a MT major to the BA in theatre studies program which has much more liberal arts classes while still allowing the student to perform on Emerson Stage and take theatre classes. Many student enter into the MT BFA program, discover that a BFA may be too single minded for all of their outside interest and end up in the BA program. It’s a nice option to have. If you view my post on the Emerson MT wall I talk more about the “well-rounded-ness” Emerson’s program has.</p>
<p>Sorry but there are a few things I forgot to mention:
Emerson also offers an Honor’s program for musical theatre majors which is very selective and provides half tuition scholarship. Honors program students take specialized honors seminars and have many additional liberal arts responsibilities.</p>