<p>what do parents think?..Personally, I think it is great idea. In my opinion, I always thought greeks as organizations promoting exclusive behavior.</p>
<p>I didn’t even know they have fraternities in Princeton before I got that letter…</p>
<p>I think they’re right. I wouldn’t mind if they didn’t have any greek life at all… although it probably will not concern S a tiniest bit anyway.</p>
<p>THere is a trend that I have seen that I kind of like…its groups of students that get together with a common goal, not greek, but to get together to do various volunteer work, to help each other, but not the “traditonal” greektype group with the clothes, the logos, the all the stuff that goes along. They meet in student lounges, plan events and get togethers, there is no pledging or anything like that, just small communities of students.</p>
<p>They actually do good works, support each other, make friendships, but in a much less formal way</p>
<p>So its not like a Math Club, or Latin Club, or Greek Orgnazation. Its just groups of kids, so far I have seen reports about females, that want to help others and like the idea of doing things with others. And all the benefits that come from that.</p>
<p>I admit that I don’t know much about Princeton, but what’s the difference between rushing a fraternity and rushing an eating club?</p>
<p>That question confuddled me…</p>
<p>What letter? Is there some new policy for Princeton? Harvard already does not have or recognize Greeks. And especially since they have eating clubs as a substitute, I assumed Princeton was the same.</p>
<p>At Princeton the rush is called “bicker”. It has evolved over the years. Someone who is there now can update you. It used to be that during bicker students sat in their rooms and were interviewed in a series of return visits by various clubs until the final evening when bids (invitations to join) were distributed.</p>
<p>No one lives at the clubs except for the two or three top officers, in some cases. Meals are served at the clubs, and parties are held on weekends, and apparently some Friday and Thursday nights now. Typically you had to be a member to attend the party, or be a close friend of someone who was watching the door. It seems that this is similar to fraternities.</p>
<p>There is no hazing involved in the membership process.</p>
<p>There has always been a big deal made about the clubs at Princeton, probably because of the semantics of calling something a club. Years ago, there was no alternative eating and social circle after sophomore year, and if you did not joing a club, you were an “independent”, which meant you scrounged the pizza joints and the student center for your meals with whomever was around to go with. </p>
<p>Beginning in about 1968, several of the clubs failed financially, and some became “open” sign-in, or non-selective. Some were resurrected by new groups of sophomores who approached the boards of the clubs and reformed a new section of recruits. Also, there has been a trend to college organization around the dining halls, a la Yale and Harvard, which mitigates the influence of the clubs as social alternatives. </p>
<p>Someone who is current should chime in.</p>
<p>Q: Isn’t hazing technically barred at most clubs or frats now, whether at Princeton, Dartmouth or anywhere else?A: Yes, technically.</p>
<p>Q: Furthermore, although they don’t like to talk about it - and don’t official recognize them - isn’t it true that upwards of 15% of current Princeton students join fraternities??? A: Yup!</p>
<p>“The University’s interest in minimizing the role of Greek life comes during a major revamping of the undergraduate experience. The appearance of four-year residential colleges in two years and other efforts to divert attention from the Street some students and administrators see fraternities and sororities as feeders into selective eating clubs emphasize the administration’s desire to make undergraduate life as inclusive as possible and largely based inside the colleges.”</p>
<p>“The administration’s concern is that freshmen feel pressured to join Greek organizations when they are socially vulnerable…”</p>
<p>Deignan said hazing banned under New Jersey law and University policy presents another danger.</p>
<p>“I am aware of many situations where freshman pledges (mostly in fraternities) were put at physical risk or were subjected to humiliating hazing rituals as part of their pledging,” (Dean of Undergraduate Students) Deignan said. “This is very distressing, not only to those of us who are charged with the wellbeing of undergraduates, but also to roommates and others who often worry about their friends.”</p>
<p>SEE: Daily Princetonian, May 9, 2005:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2005/05/09/news/12888.shtml?type=printable[/url]”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2005/05/09/news/12888.shtml?type=printable</a></p>
<p>Several of Princeton’s eating clubs admit men and women. It is not unusual for an eating club to have bathrooms used by both men and women. Most national fraternaties don’t admit women and certainly don’t potty with them, at least when they are sober.</p>
<p>byerly see:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/03/29/student_life_at_harvard_lags_peer_schools_poll_finds/[/url]”>http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/03/29/student_life_at_harvard_lags_peer_schools_poll_finds/</a></p>
<p>all of princeton’s eating clubs admit men and women, and all have women’s restrooms.</p>
<p>Frats as “feeders” to the eating clubs? Sounds like something from the dark ages (but then I likely wouldn’t have been admitted anyway…)</p>
<p>(I probably wouldn’t think finals clubs are conducive to an optimal student experience, either.)</p>
<p>Why don’t they just abolish these darn things? Williams (similar social classes) did in the early 1960s, and it didn’t turn out too terribly.</p>
<p>Don’t get too caught up in Harvard’s very low COFHE survey results - we don’t know that Princeton’s are any higher, and they aren’t releasing them.</p>
<p>Oh, well. To each his/her own.</p>
<p>i doubt that 98% of princeton freshmen would return, 97% would graduate, and 61% would give to the university in a given year if they didn’t enjoy their experiences there.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php[/url]”>http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php</a></p>
<p>Don’t be so sure: my alma mater - Williams (with a social profile virtually identical to Princeton’s, but without the frats and eating clubs) – has virtually exactly the same returning, graduation, and giving statistics; yet their most recent student survey (part of their 2005 diversity report) indicates that only 57% of students, when asked, say they definitely would choose the school again.</p>
<p>“Don’t get too caught up in Harvard’s very low COFHE survey results - we don’t know that Princeton’s are any higher”</p>
<p>well we certainly know for sure that it is not 28th out of 31.</p>
<p>COFHE rankings are a meaningless measure of the impact of frats (or lack thereof) on college life since they include both academic and non academic issues. Whether or not a college has frats, eating clubs, final clubs has nothing to do with whether the students think their profs are accessible, their TAs intelligible, their classes too large, their dorms wonderful or awful, and so forth. But the COFHE rankings include all these are more. As well, we don’t know the methodology used by each of the colleges to arrive at the percentages on which the rankings are based; I understand that the proportion of students surveyed at each varies greatly as were the methods used to induce students to take part in the survey.
What does Harved have to do with a discussion of frats ( or absence thereof) at Princeton anyway? I sincerely trust that Princeton students do not always draw comparisons, for good or ill, with life at Harvard!</p>
<p>Princeton has sororities, not just fraternities, open to first-year women, as the eating clubs are not. There has also been publicity lately (this spring I think) about the rise of sororities at Harvard. Seems to me to be naive to assume that students at schools of high acadenic caliber somehow are above or beyond the mainstream desire for small and somehow defined social groups that may be perceived, rightly or wrongly, as exclusionary. I don’t mean to be pro or con here, just to point out that what seems to be a social phenomenon getting some press lately.</p>
<p>marite I agree with you, but I use it day-in and day out to shut up some obnoxious (not mini) H cheerleader.</p>
<p>Well, we know that at virtually all of the schools commenting, they take the COFHE very seriously - it has the longest, tested methodology of any of the survey instruments out there, with average participation at between 50-60% of student bodies. The only other survey that comes close is NSEE, and none of the “prestige” schools dare use it.</p>
<p>Obviously frats, eating clubs, and finals clubs, or the lack thereof, would be only one of multiple factors that would impact studies of the quality of campus life - and, one would presume that for those who are active members, they would be a positive rather than a negative. Which is one of the reasons I said folks SHOULDN’T get caught up in the COFHE stats in looking at this question, and Princeton hasn’t released theirs in any case. (The Williams survey, which has been selectively released, is a real eye-popper.)</p>
<p>Simba:</p>
<p>I understand, but that post made no reference to Harvard, nor did the full article. So what if Harvard students are happy or unhappy? What has that to do with the Princeton student experience, with or without frats?</p>