@CTTC - according to D and friends - cheating is out of control in the popular, head of the class group at her school. They have been reported - and in a way that was easy to track down - but nothing changed except for the targeting of the suspected tattler by those kids. The administration has no time for “hearsay” and will not follow up. Other parents have reported as well. D hates drama and stays out of it, keeps her head down, and does her work. Others have tried but it continues.
Some examples of known cheating - there are 4-6 main kids who are the ring leaders - but it is now a much larger group and involves many of the top 25 in the grade (but not all): Many tests are given online as every student has a school provided laptop - and students consistently open multiple tabs and simply google the correct answers to the test questions - in this specific case it was AP macro economics - although they did the same in physics and calc. An entire group of kids sits in one spot of the room and engages in this practice. This is so easy to monitor and so easy to get caught but the teachers will never be supported by the parents (who all rush in to defend their child) so it will not end.
– This group also has a closed FB page where they post their homework answers and who is doing which problems, test questions, and sources for projects. D was invited to join the group - she declined the invite but did see it from a friend who accepted (and then promptly asked to be removed) This site also contains test questions to exams from the day before – there is a group of kids who are always absent or at guidance on test days – every test day. They they take the test at a make up session - same test but now knowing all the answers. A few kids had two AP scheduled back to back in the same day, and their moms insisted that they be able to take it on a different make up day - I guess thinking that they would get the same test but they could get the answers before from those that took it at normal time. It was a horribly long day for those that had back to back tests but they did it – i have no idea if the “amazing special” kids had the same test or not, but they did not have to take the second test with the rest of the classes - they were postponed. Two boys in the grade (one from above incident) had their parents change their schedule back in August so that their critical classes were later in the day – in this way they can get answers from the tests from those that took them first and second period and then study through lunch and studyhall – why do others go along and give them this…I have no idea but they are quite popular and have plenty of people who have their back. They are constantly asking my D for HW and test/quiz questions - she laughs but would never call them out on it (and never shares).
They will “win” at any costs and D has figured she just needs to step out of their way. The parents are aware and in some cases encourage and support the cheating. These kids are all headed towards the elite school lottery. The hard working non-cheating kids are all a bit lower in class rank but getting a much better education and will be better situated for college.
Unfortunately that type of systematic cheating continues at some elite colleges. Exams and answers are kept by private social clubs and teams to share. Or “study groups” create study guides, some from dubious sources. DD saw exam takers who were allowed multiple restroom trips during 2 hour exams, sometimes in pairs or threes. Despite rarely showing up for class, these types made great grades.
Hopefully the establishment of new honor codes will decrease the cheating.
@novicemom23kids, sorry to hear about the cheating situation in your d’s high school. Let’s hope that karma catches up those kids someday (the sooner the better)!
My daughter had this problem with a group assignment. Unfortunately for her partners, daughter had a 99 percent in that particular class and decided to “blow off” her part of the assignment as well since she could weather the storm and maintain her “A.” The afternoon before the project was due, one of the kids asked daughter how the project was going. When they heard she wasn’t planning on doing it, they suddenly found the time to work on it together.
Good idea, but not all group projects are conducive to that approach.
D1 had a class in college that was required for her major. It was graded almost entirely on group projects, was worth double credit (worth two classes), and had 3 different profs teaching it. The only time I have seen more more stressed was while working on her senior thesis… She really, really rode herd on those projects (warmed my little project manager heart, it did). She got an A-, but told me it was an unbelievable amount of work (far more than 2 classes worth) to pull out that grade.
Doing the work will benefit the doer considerably while others are depriving themselves of learning experiences by doing nothing. That is how I look at it. That is what I told my own kid. Take advantage of somebody else’s lazyness! Believe it or not, the efforts will not be wasted, you will come out on top although it may not seem this way. I would not talk to anybody about it. In cast majority of cases, the evidence of who is done what and how much each partner participated surface to the instructor all by itself. It happen to me personally many times. Non-participators are simply cheating on themselves, they are losers, although they do not feel this way.
My kids usually loved this problem because they could control the quality of the final project. If there was really a slacker, the teacher almost always knew it, and didn’t ding the group because of it. Most teachers give a group grade and an individual grade anyway.
However, in one case my daughter’s sophomore year in HS, a student really didn’t pull her weight, and the final project suffered as a result, because no one could carry the slack. So the group grade was an 89. The other kids complained to the teacher, who wisely let the group grade stand because they had not approached her earlier with the problem. Lesson learned: the student should approach the teacher as soon as the issue becomes apparent.
@Dolemite In real life, group projects will never include people who won’t do anything, because they will be fired. They will never include people with 75 or 80 IQ’s, because the nature of group projects is that they are undertaken by people with IQ’s of 110 or higher.
Students need not be subjected to the artificial torture of group projects under the guise that it somehow prepares them for later corporate projects, because they are apples and oranges. Group projects should be banned from our public high schools.
You don’t think there will be people in your workplace with IQs under 100? I sure know some. That is a pretty elitist comment. I won’t name job categories, but I have definitely had project team members who probably aren’t in the higher IQ group. And honestly, they aren’t always the worst team members. Attitude causes at least as much of a problem in projects as lack of smarts.
@intparent I didn’t say under 100, I said 75 to 80. I heard a friend of my son’s complaining about a group project in which one of the participants could not read. What, exactly, was that person supposed to contribute?
I can agree with you that a bad attitude can cause as many problems as a lack of “smarts.” But in the real world there are never group projects that include people who simply cannot do the work. And it is rare for them to include people who refuse to do anything, since they will be fired.
Schools should teach the curriculum standards that are registered with the state. As a general rule, working well with others are not among them. If a student should have a mastery of the subject matter but be a total misanthrope, then he should get an “A.”
@EarlVanDorn you have a very naive attitude. Do you not think people get fired for not pulling their weight? People in real life don’t pull their weight in group projects for numerous reasons and some get fired or get help for reasons they aren’t pulling their weight (substance abuse issues, family issues, etc). I’ve had to work with a couple of people that ended up getting fired one for substance abuse issues and another that obviously falsified his credentials and was basically learning on the job.
After reading your second post starting to think you’re just taking the mick.
People on real life…in their jobs…spend time together during the work day where they complete these projects. They are not exoected to find time to get together on weekends and in the evenings to do the projects.
In addition, the folks are working for the same employer and likely share an interest in the work.
I can’t tell you how many times my kids were assigned group project partners at school who had no interest in the subject matter…at all.
I totally agree that folks need to learn to work in groups…but the way some schools do these group projects does not provide any instruction on HOW to do so…and to me, that is the key ingredient.
This is why I was thrilled that our HS determined that work time had to be alloted during the school day, with teacher assistance available, for these projects.
I agree it needs to be implemented better with instruction and documentation included. My daughter had a major English project her sophomore year and was paired with a student in an Art class as they had to produce a children’s board book with illustrations - my daughter had to write the story with specific guidelines (an allegory) and the Art student had his guidelines. They were given time to meet at school, they had regular status reports with deliverables, and used Google Docs/email as their main collaboration tool. It was a great project and simulated what it might be like for a writer that worked in advertising or somewhere that various medias are produced that include writing and art work. She also had another group project where the team “fired” one of the members for not pulling her weight - they had to go to the teacher to get their friend removed from the project because she kept missing deliverables. That’s not easy but happens. Getting a total misanthrope fired or removed is easy - much harder when it’s someone you like.
Post 66-“Non-participators are simply cheating on themselves,”
No, they are cheating the group. In real life they would not be in a group situation or fired from the group. Group projects at middle school/ high school level don’t benefit anyone but slackers in my opinion.
I only do group projects with people I trust to hold their own. If that isn’t the option it shouldn’t happen.
I’m not interested in my kids learning group dynamics and other corporate skills in high school. This is a subversion of education which has been going on for almost a generation now. School should not be middle management training ground.
Teach subjects. Teach critical thinking. The whole world doesn’t need management techniques. And if companies want them, then they can teach them to the folks that work for them. There’s a whole world of people who don’t work in corporate, don’t need to do group projects, and operate just fine in the “real world.”
And to counter the anticipated comments, if you want that for your kid, make it a corporate training elective class. Let English classes teach English, math teach math, science teach science, etc.
I teach writing at the college level, and you know what my students haven’t done enough of in HS? Write! I guess they’re too busy making films and posters.
You can say the same thing about a lot of subjects for those people. They don’t need 4 years of English or history. Some don’t need math beyond the basics. Science? How many people need biology or chemistry in what they do? That’s a weak argument to me. Working with others in a team environment is a general skill that more people need than biology or chemistry - it’s not just a management skill.
My kids detested group projects in high school because yup, they were the kids who wound up doing the work. Interestingly, once they were in good fit colleges, I never heard a complaint on the rare occasions when they were working on a group project. I don’t credit the middle school/high school group projects they endured for that. I think it was because similarly goal-driven people were working together in an environment (school and class) they chose.
Working with others in a team environment is a nice skill - unfortunately, there will always be those who learn how to take credit for the work of other people and bask in the spotlight others have earned. And not everyone has to be a team player to be successful.