Group Think? Are we offering solid advice? Are we being influenced too much by rankings?

Parents Forum
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Yep. That all makes sense. I suppose it might be a little complicated if you’re at a school with an IB program and you opt out of IBD but still have a wide range of challenging classes. There you might run the risk of the counselors having a view that you didn’t pursue the most challenging “package” of classes you could, which might not be fair. I wonder how much discretion HS guidance counselors have in making this assessment.

But even outside of a few classes here and there (so, ignoring my example of the dreaded sophomore year biochem class), it’s very interesting to me that a kid could wind up at Dartmouth without having taken calculus at all. I’m not being judgy here. What a nice world it would be if the highly selectives didn’t force everybody into a narrow range of what constitutes acceptable (or impressive) rigor. I honestly can’t think of a single person I know among my kids’ peers who attended a T30 U or LAC who didn’t take calc in HS. No, not everyone took the most difficult calc class available, but they all at least got that far in HS math.

Honestly, I read @Thorsmom66 's post and found it refreshing to hear of that kind of success story. We pile a lot on these kids, and in some respects it doesn’t seem fair. Almost all of the people I know my age or older who attended super high end colleges often share when it’s brought up that it wasn’t that big of a deal to get in when they did. My Dad’s old business partner used to say about his attendance at Duke back in the 70s that “he caught the elevator at the ground floor before it went up.” You just didn’t have to kill yourself like you do today.

You’re only 16 to 18 once. As much as I enjoyed college and my 20s and 30s, that time of adolescence is just as important and is its own unique experience. Some of my most cherished memories are from that time in my life, and I’m glad I didn’t sacrifice them for more hours pouring over academic material. As I shared, I have some regrets over having permitted it for one of mine, who I think had her high school years somewhat compromised by ridiculous academic and EC pressure.

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Same, but to be fair I think most of the kids in S24’s HS had at least taken Algebra in Middle School (many like S24 had also taken Geometry, and some even farther). So four years of HS Math would take them through at least Calc AB.

That said, I don’t know for sure that no one from our HS ever gets admitted to such colleges without Calc.

For what it is worth, my S24 has sometimes suggested he wishes we had pushed him harder in some ways, so I kinda think you cannot win! But that said, I am with you, I think at least in some circles, too many people (kids, peers, parents, and so on) kinda take it as a given that maximizing the chances of getting into the most selective possible college is an overriding goal, forgetting that every year of your life really does count as much as any other. Obviously some working for the future is important, but it can’t be the only thing.

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Oh, this is a good example. I have heard the advice that having a story that can be reduced to a single phrase can boost an application, e.g. “That Fishing Kid”

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There is a similar situation at our local high school. The AP Chem teacher is a notoriously difficult teacher and gives low grades. The savvy kids take Honors Chem instead. This way they don’t ruin their GPAs and since it is just 1 class, and there are plenty of other APs (and IBs) to choose from, they still are able to get the “most rigorous” label.

Too bad there are incentives to “play the game.”

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My D’s HS had that issue, not only because of difficult teachers but also because honors classes were weighed the same as APs.

However, her guidance counselors did level the game with how they reported rigor to colleges. The year my D graduated only 3% of the class got “highest rigor” and the GC made special note about kids who really challenged themselves in their LORs.

Across the board the students who challenged themselves had better college outcomes than those that were focused solely on GPA.

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Ha! I think the other thing that probably came through was his long term dedication/passion - this kiddo got way into fishing in elementary school. It wasn’t something he dreamt up to appeal to colleges - it was a real, authentic interest. My S24 didn’t have that and it probably hurt him at the very most selective schools.

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It’s important to note that the trend is away from counselors checking the rigor box on the common app School Report form, similar to how many schools have moved away from class ranking, or really ranking of any type.

The common app School Report form is required for counselors to complete, but typically counselors attach 1) a school profile (which as we know are highly variable in quality and/or content) and 2) the student’s transcript and that’s it. Some may pick and choose some questions to answer on the CA SR form, but they are all optional (beyond the initial counselor and school ID info.)

Here’s the School Report form (curriculum ranking question on p2 bottom third): Salesforce

The school report form does not include the counselor rec letter. Here’s the counselor rec form:
https://commonapp.my.salesforce.com/sfc/p/#d0000000eEna/a/8X0000011Kf6/Jv1Pvg8yvluXZaNdUG3INHJJve.MUDFJPrA3IUgnCZM

Counselors may attach a separate letter document, rather than completing the above form. Many counselors do not write an LoR for their students, checking the box ‘not sending an evaluation for this student’. Some include a paragraph that says something to the effect that ‘due to the high caseload at XX HS, counselors will not be sending an LoR for any student.’ It’s important to note that this would satisfy a college’s requirement (if they have one) for a counselor LoR.

In summary, students/parents should ask the counselor what they will be communicating/sending on the student’s behalf.

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I love the “The Fishing Kid” story!

Along those lines, I don’t think a “standout” story needs to be that long-term or curated to get an AOs attention. It can achieve that by simply being atypical.

Note: This is my kid’s story so a datapoint of one; take it for what it is. Also, as a premed, she was on a merit hunt including top competitive scholarships, so did not apply to many schools that do not offer merit. She was very pleased with her acceptances and merit options.

After reading CC for several years, D’s application was probably viewed as one of many well-rounded average excellent kids. She did have top 10% grades at a rigorous private school, outstanding service and leadership within our local sphere, but nothing thousands of other kids across the nation did not have.

She did have one quirky activity that had nothing to do with her career plans or any of her other activities. In high school she discovered a multiplayer game she’d played as an elementary kid had been sundowned then revived by a non-profit/fan-run group. She wanted to help bring that family-friendly fun to a new generation so she contacted the non-profit and joined their volunteer staff. She’s still working with this group now…9th grade-college junior… in PR, Communications, Partner Relationships. (In fact she’s working their annual conference this weekend.) That activity was mentioned by many AOs; it was unique. But it was hardly one of her most time-consuming ECs. I think it was the last one she listed as it took the least time; she almost left it off since it wasn’t school-related. Yet it must have stood out. I wonder if she was known as the “kid video game” kid.

So just another perspective on the idea of standing out to an AO.

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I love this story and I think it underscores something I picked up from AOs and try to mention to kids whenever I can.

So many kids I encounter seem to be looking to do something “impressive”, and to them this means winning competitions or maybe doing research or starting a non-profit or such.

But AOs much more seem to be on the hunt for “interesting” over impressive, and what is naturally interesting to them is not something a gazillion other kids do because they think it will be impressive.

So your kid and the fishing kid and so on are actually interesting! And that is probably most helpful.

That said, I’ll just note again some kids may just like to do normal HS kid stuff. And maybe that is not the absolute optimal activity strategy for the most selective colleges. But I still think if that makes them happy and helps them have a healthy and balanced childhood, then that is great. And they can always go somewhere fancy for postgrad when it really counts anyway . . . .

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There’s always going to be “a kid” who gets into Dartmouth without calculus. There will, in fact, be quite a few of them. But the vast majority of kids who get into Dartmouth will have calculus; that’s who you’re competing against…so not taking it means gambling that you have something else that makes you the one they want to admit despite not having calculus. I point to Wesleyan a lot simply because they come right out and say this stuff on their admissions page and most schools don’t, but Wesleyan reports that of students offered admission (this is for 2023):

  • 85% have taken calculus
  • 80% have taken biology, chemistry and physics
  • 78% have a fourth year (or equivalent) of one foreign language

I’d venture a guess that a lot of the 15% that haven’t taken calculus haven’t taken it because it wasn’t offered at their schools; the rest have something else going for them that Wesleyan really wants. But numbers like that were enough to convince me that it was worth encouraging my non-STEM kid to take calc senior year. He doesn’t LOVE math, but he has no particular difficulties with it, so that was easy enough to do. (He did not get into Wesleyan, but did get into other equally and more selective schools, incidentally). I also think that “do something that makes you stand out!” is a much more stressful prescriptive for a lot of kids than “take calculus.”

I think another problem with giving out advice is that every school has different priorities. A private college admissions counselor I know told an anecdote recently of asking people in the admissions office of two different selective colleges if they’d rather see a kid take another boilerplate AP or dive deep with a high level elective. One college said the elective, no question, and the other said the AP.

I think it makes sense for kids aiming for very selective schools to take the most rigorous schedule they can comfortably handle, spend time doing ECs they love, and trust that it will work out. And that the advice should lean less heavily on “you don’t need X to get into a top 20 school” and more on “you will seriously be okay if you don’t go to to a top 20 school.”

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One of the difficulties around the kind of advice provided here is that it is often provided or taken as formulaic.

Before there was as much data about who got it (i.e , 50 years ago), the process was really an open casting call. There were a handful of players who were in the know (the boarding schools that were feeders), but most weren’t so everyone just “did” high school and the AOs felt like they could see who had the “it” factor. These were typically the kids who really excelled in all disciplines, demonstrating ability in a wide range of areas. Nobody prepped for the SAT, so while the tests inevitably had tons of bias built in and kids from better high schools had an edge, people pretty much accepted their scores. Put differently, these were the kids that aced the admission test without knowing what the test was.

Over time, as there has been more information about who the admitted students are, there has been much more of an effort to craft one’s resume to match that profile. It’s become less about having the “it” factor and more about appearing to have it. A lot of the advice here is really around the latter. Of course, it also benefits kids who actually have the it factor and didn’t know what they had to do to demonstrate it.

So yes, the kid who needs to dodge certain high school classes to appear broadly brilliant probably is not the real deal at a school that isn’t highly specialized. And of course, there are exceptions. The post with Wes’ admissions info is helpful.

An AO at a top school describes this demonstration of excellence as table stakes (whereas it might have been enough for admission 50 years ago). But it’s also harder with grade inflation, the ability to prep for tests, TO, etc.

Personally, I think kids should a) get a well-rounded education in high school. For the disciplines they like, this will be the springboard for college, and for the ones they don’t, it’ll be their foundation in that atea for life in general. Then b) they should stretch themselves to learn how to learn, and they should do this in a way that c) leaves time to experience the world outside school, have friends, and figure out who they are. These kids will in fact be interested and interesting.

There are schools out there for everyone. I also fully acknowledge that the cost of education and the fact that more students pursue post-secondary degrees changed how families look at this. But I think AOs are still trying to do the same thing they always were, but now, it can be harder to see who is the real deal and who isn’t.

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This reminded me that one of my favorite things about this forum is all the people who are hunting for different things, including the ones hunting for affordability beyond just whatever their best in-state option might be. For those people, sometimes the answer might be a famous and very selective private with a big need aid budget, but it gets really interesting to me when it is not, when it is some sort of other private or public that is a great fit for their kid and which offers some combination of need + merit that gets them on budget.

I truly love reading those sorts of success stories, both because they are inherently more interesting, and also because I know THAT sort of success story actually makes a difference!

Like not to be cynical, but I know most of the kids going to a most selective college would be perfectly fine (indeed, possibly even better off) going to their favorite next-most selective college. Of course I am still happy for them if they are excited about where they are going, but I never really saw the stakes for them as being objectively all that high.

But these kids who find creative, low-cost opportunities? The kind a lot of kids/families don’t even know are an option? That to me is a much bigger deal.

Anyway, I am just trying to circle back to the original question of this thread, and I think we are often at our best, meaning adding the most value, when we are helping the kids and parents who want, or indeed need, to be thinking outside the “how can I have the best chance to get into the most famous/selective college possible” box.

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Well my S24 is an example. Taking AP Stat this senior year, but refused to take AP Calc. Not only that, there are several of S24’s group who will be attending T30/LAC this year (w/o AP Calc) from our public HS. We are one of “feeder” public HS in the state to Ivy/Ivy+/T30 public flagships/T30 SLAC.

Perhaps his rigor came that he took 6 years of foreign languages (4 yrs latin and 2 yrs Korean), not math.

This for sure. I see this a lot even for college/grad students - “finding” formulaic paths for career and even life.

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And just to be clear, I wasn’t suggesting no one outside of our particular HS gets admitted to such colleges without Calc. I was really just wondering about our HS in particular.

I note one factor is we do not actually offer AP Stats (we offer few APs in general, although the Calcs are one major exception). Some people take Stats in addition to Calc, and others take our Statistics class instead of Calc, but I am personally not aware of anyone doing the latter who was also admitted to one of those sorts of colleges.

Again it probably has happened anyway, but I think it is also probably right that we are disproportionately unlikely to have kids in that 15% or so at Wesleyan and such who did not take Calc.

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Regarding taking calc or the highest offered level of other HS classes, at colleges like Dartmouth, expectations often vary for different students. Different students at the same HS may have different expectations for a variety of reasons, including different prospective majors. For example, Dartmouth’s website states that they recommend a minimum of:

  • Mathematics: 4 years, through calculus for students interested in engineering and the STEM disciplines

Dartmouth says that they recommend calculus for STEM kids, in particular engineering. The website does not imply that calculus is expected for kids pursuing non-STEM majors, and they make a special point of mentioning the variation by prospective major. Dartmouth may expect that the student takes a rigorous and challenging curriculum and the GC checks the most rigorous box, but that’s not the same as saying every kid must take calculus if offered in their HS, including kids for which math has little to do with their prospective major.

For example, back when I applied to colleges, I was a prospective electrical engineering major. Being a prospective EE major, my math/science rigor was extremely high, going well beyond calculus or the highest level of classes offered at my HS. However, I didn’t enjoy Spanish, so I only took Spanish up to 3rd/4th year (don’t recall which), when my HS offered 6 years. This put me among the bottom few % of kids from my HS, in terms of highest level of foreign language. I did take a foreign language class during each year of HS, but took Latin in senior year instead of Spanish, which I enjoyed more. Before making this decision, I confirmed that I met the published foreign language expectation at all colleges to which I planned to apply. Stanford, MIT, and Ivies all accepted me in spite of the weak foreign language rigor. I did not take any foreign language classes during college, so HS foreign language rigor was not especially relevant to my academic success during college, and I expect colleges recognized this.

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Lots of talk around AP Calc and rigor. Does AP English hold less weight - and how do we know?

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Good question! I think the reason there is more discussion around the necessity of AP Calculus is because the decision whether or not to take AP Calculus is often made by the student’s middle school teachers… that is, the tracking happens as early as 7th or 8th grade, and once the placement is made, it is challenging to change your high school math progression. As a consequence, we see juniors (or their parents), for example, who had no particular interest in math/STEM in middle school realizing as they get older that they want to major in STEM in college, and then recognizing too late that they are not on a track to hit Calculus by senior year. Similarly, there are students from school districts where aggressive math advancement in middle school is not offered, and they, too, panic once they are later in high school and realize students from other school districts are taking Calculus (or higher) senior year. Therefore, these students and parents voice a lot of concern around the Calculus question, and in parallel, colleges offer varying guidance about whether and when Calculus is recommended (colleges also recognizing that the Calculus question is often decided in 7th or 8th grade). Thus, a whole lot of discussion on the question.

AP English, in contrast, can be chosen the year that you want to take it. Maybe it’s a bit harder to wedge yourself into AP English junior year if you’ve taken non-honors English in 9th and 10th, but even then, it’s usually still possible with a teacher recommendation. So students and parents are making the AP English decision with knowledge of a student’s current aptitude, interests, and college aspirations. Therefore, not so much to discuss on this forum. And on the college side, they too know that students are choosing or not choosing to take AP English based on their current aptitude and interests (not a 7th grade teacher’s impressions) and likely feel it very reasonable to judge a student’s decision whether or not to take AP English as an appropriate indicator of their aptitude and interests. And yes, if a student says they want to major in Comparative Literature but they choose not to take the AP English classes offered by their school, this absolutely may weigh poorly. And conversely, if a potential STEM major chooses not to take AP English, the college may weigh that decision differently.

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My two cents is if anything the STEMish kids I encounter online who are gunning for liberal arts tradition privates like the Ivies and such, and in fact MIT, are too often neglecting the need to show those colleges they will also enthusiastically thrive in their HASS classes.

Now whether or not that involves AP English will be very contextual, but as another poster explained, usually if a HS has it, it is fairly easy to take.

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I think the idea holds, but I don’t think its AP English… At our school, for example, everyone takes AP English. Humanities rigor shows up in the form of APUSH and even more so AP Euro. STEM students, too, are expected to show breadth IME.

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This is really helpful. I’m a parent with a junior who’s plan is to major in neuro, with an interest in research/PhD. It’s so hard not to freak out about the fact that he’s not taking AP Calc next year. But let me be clear, it’s me freaking out not him. He knows his chances at reach schools would be higher, but is super excited about AP Stats and Anatomy and had to choose what to fit into his schedule. He’s clear about his choice because he LOVES the topic. A stranger might look at his transcript and think he took an easier AP senior year, bot not anyone who knows him. He’ll talk your ear off about all the different biases (and his friends debate which is their favorite).

So as a mom, I want him to have as many options as possible (including Wesleyan and Haverford and WashU), but he has this amazing list of schools which are not as much of a reach (Pitt, Rochester, Macalester, Drexel). I’m taking his example and trying to truly embrace that if he’s rejected to schools because of the lack of Calc then he doesn’t belong there. Our school district is highly competitive and he’s worked hard to maintain school/life balance amongst a grind culture of taking as many APs as humanly possible. I think this has worked well for him as his intellectual curiousity has amplified over time. I also remind myself that anyone who is riveted by academia is going to do well “anywhere” because he’ll lap up what’s offered to him while also keep playing drums and singing a capella and maintaining his joie de vivre.

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