It seems that College Confidential commenters have converged on two opinions:
Top students, with top test scores, with exceptional leadership/activities (written comprehensively and well on CC) are “REACHING” into all schools with a low acceptance rate. I am not talking about just Harvard, MIT, and Stanford. I am talking about Bates, Wisconsin, Boston College, and Tulane.
Blemished students, with EITHER lower test scores, or checkered grades should still apply to Harvard, MIT, and Stanford, because “You Never Know.”
Well…I don’t recall that I’ve ever done either of the absurdity things you posted in this op.
But we need to remember, this is an online social media platform with many folks with varying opinions. What some view as those highly rejective schools could vary.
I think there is a grain of truth to what you post- but you are missing a lot of the background story which is relevant.
A kid in Scarsdale or Atherton needs to be pretty darn special- academically and otherwise- if the goal is Princeton. At a top ranked HS where the kid can pick from 6 different foreign languages and the school system has been offering music lessons on 8 different instruments since second grade, not every kid is going to have a perfect transcript. So when those kids post that their “safety” is BC– but they dropped foreign language in 10th grade when it got hard, should they still apply? And a couple of A minus grades “dragging down” their GPA- yes, folks on CC encourage that kid to shoot for the moon because “you never know”. But for the Wisconsin’s and BC’s and Emory’s of the world- the kid is STILL not a “walk on” because many of these schools take the “recommendations” of what courses to take seriously. And the STEM kid who sleeps through English and history may not be what ANY Jesuit school is looking for.
So it’s complicated. Kid graduating from HS in Camden NJ? Different story. School has no foreign language past 10th grade? Kid has no EC’s except for being a medical translator for their entire extended family after school because the kid speaks perfect English but nobody else does? Extenuating circumstances.
I think people here are pretty thoughtful on the “absurdity”. Especially since kids and parents often don’t tell the entire story until post number 100.
We generally can’t actually give people really tailored advice as we can’t see their school’s profile - a truly key piece missing - or their recs, or (in general) their full list of courses..
Given a 3.8 at one school is wildly different than at another, all we can do is hedge, honestly. I have kids at 2 different schools, this is SO true. It is night at day.
Are you suggesting we tell kids with a 3.8UW (is that on a 4.0 or 4.3 scale? is an A- a 3.7 or 4.0?) they can’t apply to Harvard?
I like to be encouraging and I hope that my chance me posts come off that way. I also want to add value and be directionally accurate. But telling people with a C in Calc “AB” that they should apply to Cal Tech because you never know… I am not so sure if there is a backstory that can get me there.
Wisconsin, BC, and Emory are not at the same level. Wisconsin has never been a top school that most would consider difficult to get into. So A student from a top private school could easily get in with a lower GPA or a few dropped classes. That’s less likely to happen at BC and will never happen at Emory. Add test score medians, and the difference is clear.
I would probably further clarify, and when they ignore the clarification I go silent. On the margin, it is not where I would put my effort… unless everything else is absolutely glowing.
I honestly have never seen anyone ask for that level - I am sure it has happened, but is rare.
and truthfully, w/o school profile is only somewhat helpful IMO - you are missing critical context for interpreting #s.
Note: I am assuming we are talking highly selective private admissions (as in OP) some state schools are much more pure numbers driven and “lazy” for lack of better word at interpreting GPA / rigor
Perhaps many of us are reluctant to say “forget it, it will not happen” even when we are thinking this for two reasons. One reason is that we might be wrong. The other reason is that we do not want to crush a young student’s dream all at once. We might want to instead try to help to get them ready for when the rejection comes in the mail (presumably email these days).
However, there are lots of examples where some of us have pointed out that a particular student’s chances at Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, MIT, or Caltech are quite low.
There are also lots of examples where a student is applying to a very long list of reach schools, and several of us recommend that they reduce the length of the list.
And sometimes we recommend applying to safeties, even while simultaneously saying that we do expect they will get into some of the match schools that are already on their list.
And there is some truth to an implication in your post that we should be careful about what we say.
Years ago I worked on a contract that had government funding from a military source. One member of the military and I happened to be at dinner, and he described what he called the general’s dilemma: A general is visiting a particular military post. He gets off the plane, and is taken by jeep to his meeting. He gets out of the jeep, looks at the building next to the one where the meeting is, and just off handedly says: “That is a funny looking building”. Then he goes into the next building over and is in meetings all day. At the end of the day he comes out of the meeting, is about to get back in a jeep to be driven to the airport, and notices that they are demolishing the funny looking building. He asks “Why are you demolishing this building?”. The response: “General sir you didn’t like it so we are tearing it down”. The point is that anyone in authority needs to be careful what they say, because people might take it too seriously.
I am suggesting we may be converging toward the middle; You should (not can) apply anywhere and you are also a reach at anything difficult - no matter your profile.
I find the whole thing encouraging to some and discouraging to others.
I provide the best “opinion” and try to back with data where appropriate that I’ve got.
I read other comments including yours that might take a 3.75 differently than I do.
We are not one person, we are not AOs and we’re certainly not the school’s AO.
AOs are people. They might have had a fight with their spouse this morning and be in a bad mood, they might be medicated or not feeling well. They might read something differently on a Tuesday than Monday.
But yes, I give the OP the best I have. That may or may not be correct and it’s certainly not always agreed upon by other posters and I appreciate an alternative perspective, if done respectfully.
I benefit and the OP benefits.
And a little caution never hurts I’d say. No one is penalized from more options, opportunities if I get a bit cautious.
I’d also add an OP saying an essay is 10/10 or an LOR is 7/10 really tells me nothing - as these are subjective.
Honestly people don’t know and take best guesses, some more informed than others.
Personal anecdote of my oldest kid, solid 3.5 uw. We know someone on a HYP adcom who was talking to her (in general) about college admissions and said, you know what, most ivies wouldn’t look past your grade but mine will (because a certain factor she had, not exactly a hook, met an institutional priority and “quite frankly a 3.5 is enough academically to succeed here”). She wasn’t interested in applying there, but she did get into another lower tier but still reach school, and I would bet that that not-quite-hook worked in her favor there too. And I am pretty certain that if she had come on here with a chance me for either of those schools she would have been met with “no way”. I doubt anyone on CC would have realized how important that angle was for her. Certainly, we didn’t until it was pointed out.
All of which to say is you don’t know and absurdities may end up being right, because no one has the information the adcom sees.
I’ve been accused of being overly cruel. Well, if a student wants to apply to Cal Tech, should they not chase their dream - so I’ll say something like, the odds are stacked against you but if you don’t apply, then you have 0% chance of getting in.
I think the students getting the worst advice on this forum are the ones who need it the most - first generation, low income. The majority of posters are parents who were shooting for top schools or high merit as they didn’t want to be full pay. Their students are overwhelmingly privileged. They are utterly unfamiliar with the reality of a student coming from a low resource school. These are the students who will receive excellent financial aid from schools who are looking to diversify their student body and will offer the support they will need. These are also the kids who benefit the most from the prestige of a school. But they are given the same list of giant merit schools that donut hole families are sending their kids to avoid big tuition bills.
Adcoms DO overlook inconsistencies in those students. So it’s beneficial for them to explore schools with generous financial aid. Others are often the type to wonder - so telling them to shoot their shot and move on to find other good schools, could be worse advice.
Cruel is not something I have noticed, but I would say no to that one. I feel like I am doing them a favor and if it is their dream, I can sleep knowing I tried to save them $100 and 15 hours of their time.
And here’s the thing- the “Chance me” themselves are absurd sometimes.
Kid posts “No hooks, from a regular middle class family” and then an inch below- “Family income is around $500K”. In what world are you from a “regular” middle class family? Doesn’t mean your family can easily afford full freight– depends on the what and the where- but you aren’t middle income. Even if your prep school buddies come from families where 500K is the base salary and the bonuses are 7 figures. You may feel poor- but you are not middle class in the eyes of the Adcom reading your application.
Another absurdity- the post is riddled with grammatical errors, poor syntax, etc. and the kid confidently states “My essay is 10/10, everyone says so”. Well…. that suggests a whole lotta “crowdsourcing” on said essay. More than just an English teacher saying ‘you need to tighten up your topic sentence, it’s rambling” (which I think is perfectly legit btw) and more actual line editing, sentence structuring, replacing word choices, etc. So sure, if you’ve had professional help, your essay may in fact be a 10/10 even if you’re a cruddy writer. But it may or may not sound like an actual high school kid wrote it- so kids, be careful before you let someone else write your essays for you.
And of course- kids majoring in finance at Brown, applying for nursing at Yale (Yale’s school of nursing is a graduate program and requires a Bachelor’s to be considered for admission) and stating “I don’t want to end up in a desk job so I’m applying to XYZ for Investment Banking”.
Desk job? You won’t be SITTING at a desk, you’ll be chained to said desk.
So yeah, sometimes posters are absurd with their “chancing”. And sometimes it’s unavoidable because the OP’s are so absurd.