Since getting into selective colleges is a competition, applicants who don’t submit a high test score will be disadvantaged even if the college is test optional. Adcoms are only going to reserve x amount of seats to no test applicants. So IMO, if a college is test optional, I would still prep and take the standardized tests this summer and fall. If you bomb the test than don’t submit the score but take the tests and try for a high score, always! It might hurt you not submitting test scores.
@momofsenior1 University of Alaska, University of Arizona, University of Arkansas, University of Connecticut, University of Delaware, University of Hawaii, University of Idaho, University of Indiana, University of Kansas, Louisiana State, University of Maine, University of Minnesota, University of Mississippi, University of Missouri, University of Montana, University of Nebraska, University of Nevada, University of New Hampshire, Ohio State, University of Oregon, Penn State, Rutgers, University of Texas, University of Virginia, University of Washington, West Virginia University, University of Wisconsin are all flagships that are test optional for the next admissions cycle.
@socaldad2002 My point was that its not a direct disadvantage that an applicant doesn’t submit a score. More of a “I’d rather take the one that did submit because they have more positives”. Not submitting is neutral on an application, whereas submitting a good score is positive. So you’d obviously rather take the applicant who has more positives. But it’s not an automatic “no” if an applicant doesn’t submit a score.
It is a direct disadvantage if the school is limiting the number of test optional acceptances, and some are in order to not be penalized in USNWR rankings. There are many college Presidents, Trustees and alumni who care a great deal about USNWR rankings.
It is also still an advantage to have a strong test score, especially if the applicant is from a high school that is not rigorous, or less known to the AOs.
I’m quite aware of this. However, there are many schools that aren’t limiting their amount of TO acceptances. I was merely explaining the theories behind the TO policy.
I never said that it wasn’t an advantage. My whole point is that its a positive to submit a good score.
You literally wrote it is a “not a direct disadvantage that an applicant doesn’t submit a score” in post #22. I am not sure as a rising college freshman that you have the experience or perspective to opine on the theories behind TO policies, or make a broad statement that many colleges aren’t limiting their TO acceptances.
First, what I said was still correct. AOs won’t not admit a student for the sole fact that they didn’t submit a score unless there were outside factors (limited space, other applicants that were better, etc).
Second, there’s no need to make things personal or rude. You don’t know me, and I can assure you that I know enough to make the statements that I do, I don’t need to prove anything to you. If you want to talk about college admissions, that’s fine, but there’s no reason to bring ad hominem into this.
@izrk02 here is what you wrote “ If you don’t submit one, no problem! ”
I just disagree. If your peers are submitting a score (especially a high one) than it could be a problem as they are competing directly with you for limited spots in the freshman class.
I would just be very skeptical that all of these highly selective colleges are now going TO for one year and will not have their biases for high stat applicants?
I personally would not leave anything up to.chance and try your best to prep for and take the ACT/SAT by the deadline this fall if you don’t already ave a high test score.
I beleive that admissions staff have one of the toughest jobs in deciding who to admit to the elite colleges. So many excellant students and a way less than perfect way of judging them. But the decisions don’t have to be perfect. Sure one student may get unfairly admitted over a much more deserving student but it is the overall makeup of the incoming class that is what matters to the college. Obviously the desrving student is hurt with the rejection, but they will probably be admitted at another one of the elite colleges.
How do the admissions staff do it? I have no inside info but will make an educated guess.
GPA, even though it isn’t consistant between high schools ,will be a good indicator if the high school has some kind of track record sending students to a particular college. Along with GPA goes class rank.
Strength of schedule also plays a part. If you took the most rigorous classes and got the good grades, it is a plus.
Teacher recommendations are always shades of good. But the really good students should still stand out.
Essays tell a lot about a student. One admissions person told me that they could easily tell if a student wrote the essay or a parent or other older person was involved in writting the essay by the phrasing and the word choices. Each generation is a little different. So, I guess that if you read enough of them, you can tell. Big minus points if the applicant didn’t write it (that brings up another potential issue: what if a student had a classmate write their essay? How do you know? I don’t think you do.)
How you tell the story in your essay makes a big difference, IMHO. Writting that grandma’s death my sophomore year devastated me and that’s why my grades were lower that year doesn’t read well. Buit describing what made your relatioanship with your grandma so special reads a whole lot better. You get the idea. Let the admissions person know who the inner you really is (and don’t get bad grades).
Depth of involvement in EC’s is much more important than just being a “joiner” and presenting a laundry list of ECs. Find a way to weave your involvlement into your application somehow (essay or one of your recommendations!!!)
Back to the original thought of this thread. SAT and ACT scores just seem to me to pale in importance to all the other things that go into admissions decisions that leaving them out doesn’t seem bad.
@socaldad2002 Again, that is based on what I was told by an admissions officer. Obviously, with similar applicants with the only difference being a good test score, you’ll choose the applicant with the test score over the one without.
The point of the TO policy is to provide students who’s tests were cancelled by COVID the opportunity to have a shot at competitive schools, not to trick test optional applicants into paying the application fee just to not be accepted. These highly selective colleges wouldn’t go TO if they didn’t expect to accept TO applicants.
Can you please provide some evidence that SAT began as a way to disadvantage students of color?
Standardized tests favor middle and upper income families. Most low income students can’t compete with students who’ve had an entire lifetime of access to a rigorous education. Those students have been prepping for these exams their entire educational career.
It’s easy to say anyone can prep for standardized tests. We hear that on CC all the time, but I don’t think most middle and upper income families have a real understanding of what life is like for the majority of average and low income families. Limited time and space to study, family responsibilities, food and housing security issues, and access to materials are all roadblocks middle and upper income families don’t have.
Where are all our low income students supposed to get the prep materials? Our library has one copy of the physical book. So middle/upper income students could all have their own personal copy while all our low income families get to share one. As we discovered from the spring virtual schooling debacle, the quality and accessibility of education in this country is wildly uneven, so the internet can’t be depended upon to provide equal access either. Even if low income students can access online test prep, how much good can it do? According to parents of students at elite universities, online instruction is vastly inferior to face to face models, so why should low income families believe that online test prep is an exception?
I don’t know why CC can’t seem to see past GPA and test scores. Every part of the application matters. What students choose to get involved in, how they present themselves across the application, and t they choose to talk about in essays are all important. Parents who are deciding between public school districts can find all kinds of information about them online. Adcoms have access to much more detailed reports. They aren’t guessing or choosing blindly.
Colleges may decide they like test optional. It would certainly take away a lot of the bickering about why someone with a 1340 was accepted while a classmate with a 1370 wasn’t. Test optional doesn’t disadvantage the poor. Under the current system, as we see stated clearly and often on CC, the first hurdle is to pass the testing bar. Without that bar, many students who might not have been considered in the past now have a chance. The only people that hurts are high scorers who now have more competition.
@socaldad2002 can take a test if there’s no test to take. It’s possible that all SATs could be cancelled near us in the fall. And some test center’s seats were all taken even on the first day of registration. Schools can’t ding you for not getting a test in before Feb.
@austinmshauri: “Standardized tests favor middle and upper income families.”
I mean, everything favors middle and upper income families.
We know that under the current system, the undergraduate student-body composition at Ivies/equivalents skews heavily towards the rich and upper-middle class.
However, my understanding is that the student body composition is absolutely no different at private elite test-optional schools, so I’m skeptical that getting rid of requiring standardized tests would lead to any meaningful changes (if what you truly care about is equal opportunity for low-SES applicants).
I actually would be curious about the distribution of standardized test scores by SES.
BTW, I grew up lower-middle class (if that). My test prep was borrowing math textbooks from the library and reading a ton of library books when I was young.
SAT began as a way to admit more diverse applicants, based on merit, specifically those who were Jewish.
@roycroftmom, actually, you got that pretty much backwards. The SAT was invented with the intent of keeping the Jews out of the Ivies. When that didn’t work, the Ivies just went with straight discrimination, instituting a Jewish quota and adopting holistic admissions, which meant they could pick all the wholesome white gentiles they wanted to.
http://commons.princeton.edu/livinglaboratories/2016/10/24/the-origins-of-the-sat/:
“In this video by BuzzFeed, we learn that the SAT was created in 1920 by a eugenicist named Carl Brigham. Brigham believed that some races had traits that were superior to those of other races. He made the SAT to reinforce the belief that Jewish people, mediterranean people, and people of color were less intelligent than white people.”
@roycroftmom @Cleodx The SAT was created by a eugenicist who developed the SAT to keep anyone who wasn’t White Anglo-Saxon out of competitive schools.
The article @PurpleTitan explains it pretty accurately.
@PurpleTitan This article explains the relationship between SAT score and income pretty well: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/03/05/these-four-charts-show-how-the-sat-favors-the-rich-educated-families/
I’m not saying it’s fair but I wouldn’t assume that “test optional” means you don’t have to submit a test especially if there are tests to be taken in July - October. If colleges really thought that it’s patently unfair they would simply go “test blind” this fall so everyone is on the same level playing field and I don’t see too many colleges electing to do that.
The reason all of these colleges went test optional is so they can maximize the number of applicants this year (similar to why Tulane waves the app fee), but that doesn’t mean that all applicants will be reviewed on an equal footing. Again, I would tell my student to prep for and take one of the tests over the next 4 months if possible; they can always chose not to submit a low score to TO colleges and maybe their are some colleges on their list that didn’t go TO?
When I look back at D20’s high school, most of the top students were done with testing by December junior year (as instructed by their college counselors) and if they were applying this fall, they would be submitting their test scores. These students are the ones “no test” applicants will be competing with at the most selective colleges.
@izrk02, I understand that there is a correlation between SAT score and family SES.
My point is that the colleges that are test-optional do not have an undergraduate student body that is any different in SES from their peers who require test scores.
That seems to be a pretty big indication to me that not requiring test scores would not make elite private American colleges more egalitarian or fair.
In fact, elite private American colleges could switch to the Oxbridge admissions model (which is like grad school admissions: Top scores in A-Levels, which are typically tougher than APs, good scores on even harder Oxbridge entrance tests, and faculty interviews, all evaluated by faculty) and end up being as or more egalitarian than they are now when it comes to the SES of their undergraduate student body (even though Oxbridge aren’t terribly egalitarian either).