<p>I think Richie Allen is not in the hall because he was not a nice guy.</p>
<p>The guys that tom1944 mentioned were great, including Dale Murphy, but I am not sure they are hall of famers. They flamed out earlier than most in the hall. Where do you draw the line?</p>
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<p>Yes.</p>
<p>The Piazza thing is different. Not exactly sure what is going on there. His career numbers seem good enough. It might be one of those “we’ll vote him in eventually but not first time around” or there may be more going on. Don’t know.</p>
<p>Tom1944-
I still miss Bernie. Besides being a great player, he always showed so much grace and class.
So sad the way he just faded away from the Yankees. </p>
<p>Our family was fortunate to catch him at our local community theatre a few years ago.
Great musical performance. Ended the show with an audience participation version of ‘Take me out to the Ball Game’. Beautiful.</p>
<p>Very few players are elected the first time they are on the ballot for the Hall of Fame. Some voters just refuse to elect them on the first round.</p>
<p>There are tons of players deserving of Hall of Fame recognition who were never invited and never will be. Oldtimer Moose Skowron who played during some of the greatest Yankee years was so overshadowed by Maris and Mantle that there wasn’t room for him. Moose passed away last year.</p>
<p>I’m in the camp of letting Bonds and Clemens and the rest in… obviously not in agreement with many above. </p>
<p>But here is my issue - the hall is already filled with those who violated the character clause:</p>
<p>accused child molester - Bill Conlin a baseball writer honored in 2011</p>
<p>[What’s</a> To Be Done With Bill Conlin? - Baseball Nation](<a href=“http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/12/26/2661357/bill-conlin-molestation-Hall-of-Fame-news]What’s”>http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/12/26/2661357/bill-conlin-molestation-Hall-of-Fame-news)</p>
<p>someone who went into the stands and beat up a fan - Ty Cobb</p>
<p>[ESPN.com:</a> He was a pain … but a great pain](<a href=“http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00014142.html]ESPN.com:”>ESPN.com: He was a pain ... but a great pain) </p>
<p>(PS - also potentially beat a man to death)</p>
<p>[A</a> century later: Did Ty Cobb kill a man? | Yardbarker.com](<a href=“MLB: Breaking News, Rumors & Highlights | Yardbarker”>MLB: Breaking News, Rumors & Highlights | Yardbarker)</p>
<p>racists - plenty of those - too many to name</p>
<p>[SPORTSbyBROOKS</a> Civil Rights Game: Why Is MLB Honoring Racists?](<a href=“http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/civil-rights-game-mlb-honoring-notorious-racists-28367]SPORTSbyBROOKS”>http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/civil-rights-game-mlb-honoring-notorious-racists-28367)
[Cap</a> Chronicled - Cap’s Great Shame](<a href=“http://www.capanson.com/chapter4.html]Cap”>http://www.capanson.com/chapter4.html)</p>
<p>Illegal drug users - e.g. greenies (Aaron, Mays and Stargill to name three)</p>
<p>[The</a> overlooked History of Illegal Drugs in Baseball Ye Olde Sports Pub](<a href=“http://sportspub.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2010/01/19/the-overlooked-history-of-illegal-drugs-in-baseball/]The”>The overlooked History of Illegal Drugs in Baseball | Ye Olde Sports Pub)</p>
<p>and testosterone use started way back in the 1889s… with Pud Galvin a Hall of Famer taking monkey testosterone.</p>
<p>[Pud</a> Galvin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pud_Galvin]Pud”>Pud Galvin - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>Babe Ruth is alleged to have injected himself with extract from a sheep’s testes.</p>
<p>[Bonding</a> With the Babe | The Nation](<a href=“http://www.thenation.com/article/bonding-babe]Bonding”>http://www.thenation.com/article/bonding-babe)</p>
<p>so why start judging now?</p>
<p>Big baseball fan, and a former supporting member of the HOF, though I’ve only been once since moving to WA. No surprises this year, though I would be tempted to give the steroid era players who were HOF caliber without steroids a free pass. Barry Bonds had the most intimidation an offensive player has ever had.</p>
<p>It’s funny that Biggio has been talked about as a potential steroid user because of his huge jump in offensive numbers, similar to the jumps made by physically larger players. It’s just that his “before” numbers were so low that his newfound power was still not remarkable.</p>
<p>I think a lot of the writers are making it about themselves and their moral indignation way more than they are about what the Hall of Fame is supposed to be. Especially when they don’t vote for people for whom steroid usage was never anything more than a rumor and was never remotely proven (like Jeff Bagwell and Mike Piazza and maybe Biggo).</p>
<p>Personally, I think people should be voted in (or not) based on how they performed, not based on sanctimonious pontification about “cheaters,” when “cheating” – whether you’re talking about stealing signs or spitballs or amphetamines – has always been an integral part of the game, and being having a bad character never used to stop anybody from getting elected. Hank Aaron admitted to using amphetamines, like most players of his era. It’s already been pointed out that Ty Cobb wasn’t exactly a nice guy. Cap Anson was largely responsible for racial segregation in baseball. And so on, ad infiinitum.</p>
<p>Besides, if the allegations are remotely true, a hell of a lot of players used steroids (even back in the '70’s and '80’s, from what I’ve been reading) – so it wasn’t really so much of an uneven playing field – but none of them performed like Barry Bonds, and few performed like Roger Clemens. They were still the best, and a Hall of Fame without them is a joke.</p>
<p>The exclusion of Rose, Bonds, and Clemens essentially makes my lifetime of watching baseball irrelevant. Sure, Ozzie Smith was a great shortstop and did cool flips, and Clemens wasn’t the only great pitcher, but those three guys set the performance standard against which everyone else was measured. Yeah, it sucks that they broke the rules, but I don’t need baseball players to tell me the difference between right and wrong, and frankly the difference between right and wrong doesn’t have a heck of a lot to do with baseball.</p>
<p>Organized baseball needs to get over itself. It’s a producer of entertainment, like Disney. Those guys were The Show.</p>
<p>I agree totally that Bonds and Clemons shouldn’t be in the hall of fame, neither should Mcguire or anyone else where there is strong reason to believe they used steroids. Yes, Clemons and Bonds had hall of fame caliber careers before they juiced, there is no doubt about it, but the reality is they went ahead and cheated anyway. The accusations against players in the past are pure speculation, if Ruth injected sheep whatever and someone played with monkey glands or whatever, that is pure speculation, and more importantly, it is very doubtful they did anything to change the way they play. In terms of using greenies, the accusations against the athletes you are talking about are just that, no proof, and quite frankly, how much impact greenies had is debatable, whereas with steroids, the proof is in the pudding. Clemons was all but washed up, and suddenly miraculously revived; Bonds, who had been a spectacular player, in his late 30’s suddenly beefs up and hits 70 homers? Might not hold as proof in court, but in civil court it would hold up as proof that he was doing hormones (not to mention the well publicized issues with roid rage both of them had)…</p>
<p>Quite honestly, what Rose did was a lot less egregious, no one could accuse Rose or prove he ever did anything to hurt the game, he played out every inning of every game he was in, as manager there was no evidence he ever threw games, and when they found him betting on his own team, he bet for them (unlike Ty Cobb, who there is proof he bet against his own team as manager, and likely threw the games)… yes, he broke the rules, but ultimately the rule on gambling wasn’t because gambling is morally dubious, it is because they fear that gamblers (like with the 1919 black sox) could end up ‘owning’ players and influencing games (which is unlikely in baseball, 1 player can’t really do that much to throw a game, takes a number of players). I think he paid for his stupidity, and I can make a much better case for him then the steroid queens.</p>
<p>With something like the Hall of Fame, it exists in the here and now, and has to be judged as such. With Bonds and Clemons and Sosa and McGuire, this was played off against people watching major drama, the home run records and so forth, and it damn nearly destroyed the game (ironically, the roid era in part, the McQuire/Sosa race, helped rekindle interest in baseball after the last strike left a foul taste in people’s mouths), and it was in people’s faces. </p>
<p>Yes, there are horrible people in the Hall of Fame, Ty Cobb was a vile person, he was an avowed racist, he might have killed someone , was a dirty player, and yes, he bet on games, including betting against his own team as manager. There are pitchers who were spitballers (which I think never should have been banned, but hey, that is me), players who were experts at stealing signals, players who threw at batters to maim them…and got in, on the standards of the day. As Steve Summers, a radio talk show host put it last night, if we removed every person of dubious character from ‘the hallowed hall of fame’ we would end up with a ‘hollowed hall of fame’:). He also thinks we should have a steroid wing, donated by the pharm industry, where the players plaques would have a syringe on them and their picture wouldn’t have their team cap, it would have BALCO on it. </p>
<p>BTW, when people say steroids were not against baseball rules, that is true (which falls right on Bud Selig’s lap, what a toad), but that leaves something else, what they did was breaking federal law, steroids are controlled substances. Baseball has had rules against illegal drugs like pot and cocaine, so what they were doing was equally as dubious. </p>
<p>I think Biggio should be in, I think quite frankly he was hurt by being in this class of nominees. I liked Mike Piazza, and there can be a case for him to be put in, though he may be more borderline, he had some great stats and IMO was a great player who gave his all, but they look at him compared to other catchers, to people like Johnny Bench, and ask if he is of that caliber (I think Piazza should be in), I think Jack Morris should have made it, too. I think quite honestly all of them were splattered from the stench of the steroid brigade, and it might take a couple of years for them to get in because of it. </p>
<p>On top of everything else, I think the sportswriters kept them out because a lot of baseball fans would be *<strong><em>ed off, and that is important, too, the game doesn’t exist without the fans, the last baseball strike damn nearly killed the game (see “The 10th inning” by Ken Burns on how bad it was…and also to me the touching things that came out of the Sox finally winning a world series, like the person who left the scorecard for the winning game on his mother’s grave, who had been a die hard fan)…the same way someone who was an avowed racist, wife beater, or other less then desirable thing wouldn’t get in these days, because people would be outraged, these clowns shouldn’t get in either. They might have had a hard time anyway, without roids, because both bonds and clemons were first class a</em></strong>**es, and sportswriters remember that, too.</p>
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<p>Aaron admits to greenies in his autobiography - did you even click on the links? Greenies were a controlled substance at the time just as steroids are today. As for the benefit - they allowed him to play when fatigue set in- a pick me up - and therefore have more opportunities to hit home runs.</p>
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<p>But he didn’t bet for them every game. As a manager, he controlled the lineup and the use of pitchers. When he has money on the game did he use his bullpen the same way as when he didn’t have $$ a stake. No way of knowing - but that is the point of the rule and why it is forbidden. BTW - Rose has been banned from all contact with MLB - where as McGuire is a coach, Bonds and Clemens are likely to be coaches in the future.</p>
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<p>And as a player, he went into the stand and beat up a fan.</p>
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<p>And greenies, which Aaron admits taking, fall into that category as well</p>
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<p>Agree with you here </p>
<p>You left out the fact that one of the voters, who is also in the Hall via the sportswriters Spinks award, is an accused child molester - he gets to cast judgement on others character?</p>
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<p>There’s plenty of proof, including plenty of admissions. There were clubhouses where greenies were available like M&M’s. And surely there’s a more direct correlation between greenies and enhancement of performance than there is for something like HGH.</p>
<p>What Rose did was far more egregious, and it’s difficult to argue the contrary. You don’t think he was more likely to overuse a relief pitcher to win a single came on which he had bet money than in a game on which he hadn’t?</p>
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<p>No he didn’t, don’t believe every 2nd hand source you read. He admits to trying them once, didn’t like the affect they had on him, and never used them again. You can believe him or not but please don’t spread mis-information.</p>
<p>If we’r going to discuss Piazza as far as stats (which i think is the only discussion he warrants), then he should be in, if not this year than soon. He leads all MLB catchers in homeruns, and has a lifetime batting average over .300, so it’s not just slugging. Though he did win 10 consecutive Silver Slugger awards.</p>
<p>No way he shouldn’t be in. And I’ll say the same for Biggio.</p>
<p>Mike Piazza is probably the best hitting catcher of all time and deserves to be in. Craig Biggio was a great hitter and a member of the 3000 hit club, which is regarded as a lock for the hall of fame. </p>
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<p>Not at all. Bonds and Clemens permanently tarnished some of baseball’s most sacred records. Pete Rose achieved greatness on his own merit and his ‘gambling’ did not have as severe lasting consequences. </p>
<p>And I’m surprised Bonds and Clemens got more than half the votes needed for induction.</p>
<p>Donna-
Bonds and Clemens were not just using HGH , they were using full anabolic steroids (the effect of HGH is debatable). Comparing the effects of amphetamines with the effects of steroids is kind of ridiculous, because they are two different things, steroids are like comparing using a tack hammer to using a jack hammer in terms of affecting performance. Yeah, greenies would help with fatigue, it is an edge,but it isn’t the same thing, not by far. Aaron admitted to trying them once and fond they didn’t work for him. No one would argue that Aaron using greenies resulted in him being able to hit 755, he did it by staying in the league all those years and hitting away at it, he played until his mid 40’s…</p>
<p>Clemens was dead as a pitcher, starting juicing, and suddenly he was a monster, Bonds was tailing off, and suddenly a 35-40 home run hitter in his late 30’s is hitting 70 home runs…comparing what they did to the use of greenies is a bit disingenuous, on top of the fact that baseball did not formally ban greenies until the 70’s (in Ball Four, written in the late 60’s, Bouton mentioned the use of them, and also that baseball had not banned them). </p>
<p>Again, the point being that views change, culture changes, and no one would argue that taking greenies is going to make a good hitter into a home run monster. The reason Clemons and Bonds are not going to get in is because what they did fundamentally cast doubt on the game, it broke confidence in it, people saw the sport as tainted, and I suspect it is for that that they will be banned. </p>
<p>Pete Rose wasn’t a great role model in what he did gambling, but there isn’t one shred of evidence anything he did affected the game. If a manager bets on his own team, which Rose did, to win, he isn’t going to throw it, and nowhere is there one shred of evidence that his gambling affected it. The reason MLB bans gambling is because they are afraid gamblers will use that as blackmail to influence games, a la the black socks, and it is rightful that Rose be banned for a certain number of years. The fact that Clemons, McGuire and Bonds are allowed around baseball is a travesty, but the problem there is baseball where it came to steroids looked the other way for so many years, deliberately, that they would have a hard time banning them, especially since the evidence against them is circumstantial. Bud Selig and the owners were just as guilty, they are a bunch of dishonest creeps who benefitted from the roid era, and then suddenly became righteous. If they are looking the other way with McGuire )(and prob with Clemons and Bonds as well), then they should look twice at Pete Rose, if for the fact that he didn’t damage the game anywhere near what those clowns did, what he did was wrong, but he has paid a much higher price then them for a crime that isn’t as egregious by any logical standard.</p>
<p>I am not as sure what should be done about these players and the hall as some of the posters. </p>
<p>One thing about steroid use is it didn’t just help the player who used, it helped his team win games. It helped the player’s team win games against other teams. Steroids may have affected pennant races. World Series too. </p>
<p>What about managers who managed steroid users and benefitted. Should Tony Larussa be barred from the hall?</p>
<p>I think Pete Rose has suffered enough. It is funny, if he entered the hall, he would just be another hall of famer. His notoriety may lessen with an induction.</p>
<p>dstark- I have a bit of trouble with the player that compiled stats by being good and playing a long time. To me that is not HOF. I also realize that you are not HOF if you did not last. But Craig Biggio was never the player Don Mattingly was. To me neither is really a HOF. I also hate the he was not a nice guy so we keep him out. Take a look at Albert Belle’s numbers. Who cares he was a pita. He could hit.
The other issue is that different era’s the stats are vastly different. This almost cost Jim Rice. If you compare his numbers to those put up recently they pale in comparison. Rice was a dominant hitter in his time.</p>
<p>Tom1944, have you read Bill James work? My guess is you have. </p>
<p>He used to write about peak value and career value as two separate things. So Koufax would be extremely high in peak value, but there would be others ahead in career value.</p>
<p>I think Biggio had a heck of a career. 3,000 hits. 15th all time in runs scored. He should be in the hof. When the Giants played the Astros, he was a key player along with Bagwell. Maybe his peak value was less than a lot of the guys you mentioned, but his career surpasses those guys. </p>
<p>I was a big Will Clark fan, but I don’t think he kept it going long enough.
Jim Rice was a force. He should be in the hof.
Maybe Albert Belle should be in…like I said, I think Richie Allen should be in the hof.
Jeff Bagwell should definitely be in the hof.
I think Jeff Kent is a hof.</p>
<p>I think different eras should be looked at differently.</p>