Hard lesson re auditions

College Majors Music Majors
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<p>It’s discussions like these that make me glad I didn’t find CC until too late in the process! :slight_smile: My kid auditioned in NYC on a medium-bore Lawson horn - a completely different sound than the big fat dark Conns NYC was known for. We knew going it that he had the “wrong” horn, but we believed his teacher when he said they were looking for musicality, talent, and potential - not a finished product.</p>

<p>As far as string styles, due to moves, my D had 4 different violin teachers growing up. She used to laugh at some of the differences, particularly when playing Bach. One teacher emphasizing one method, and another teacher scolding her for the same. Sometimes it seemed a great deal of time was spent on re-teaching. Often though, the way the teachers handled it was to refuse to work on a piece she’d begun with a different teacher – too much to unlearn. My D had learned a Mozart concerto in Germany, and wanted to polish it for a performance in the US, and her new teacher had a heck of a time, because all her fingerings and bowings and phrasings were so different from what he used. (She still won the competition.)</p>

<p>As she visited colleges and had sample lessons, she tended to categorize her teachers as being like one or another of her previous teachers, and she was able to adjust her playing a bit based upon what style she believed each teacher preferred. Ultimately, she chose one who taught in the style of her German teacher – they’d both studied at the Mozarteum.</p>

<p>None of her teachers “rejected” her based on her style, but I think she rejected some of them based on theirs. Although she never attended a summer camp while growing up, I think the changing of private teachers along the way accomplished much the same. After every teacher consistently praised her ear, for example, we can accept that she has a good one. The same can be said for repeated criticisms, and consistent evaluation of her “level” and potential.</p>

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<p>I have a bit of a different take on all of this. Longtime readers know about my son, but a quick review for the newer folks…</p>

<p>My oldest is a cellist. He started playing at the age of 10 in 4th grade through our school strings program. He had no formal musical training before that. We didn’t think he would be able to stick with cello for very long. The reason? Due to a birth defect, he is missing most of his right hand. He essentially has a claw for a right hand. He figured out a way to hold the bow that seemed to work for him. However, the bow technique he developed is pretty unique to him. As he got older and more involved in playing, he consulted with Gary Karr, a bass player who uses German grip. Son ended up making physical modifications to his bow to improve his technique. He consulted with a teacher who had some of his own physical issues to devise a way to do pisticatto.</p>

<p>Before auditions, we scheduled lessons with various teachers around the country. Either I or my husband went to all visits and sat in on all lessons. We never said anything but just observed to see how the teacher was responding to the issues with bowing. One teacher asked son to leave the room and then shared with me that she would not be able to teach him because of his hand. She freely admitted that it was her problem, not his, but that she would not be a good teacher for him. Another teacher said that it would not be an issue at all. The teacher he finally ended up with was one who stated that there were issues present, but the 2 of them would work on them together to figure them out. </p>

<p>Son did his undergrad at Eastman, a highly competitive school for cello. He was also accepted at NEC. I don’t think that any audition committee would look at his playing and not find some issues, but they also heard wonder musicality, and saw innovative technique. Audition committees are looking for musicians, not folks who are all exactly a like. </p>

<p>Son will graduate from Mannes this spring with a masters in cello performance. He is thinking about eventually going for a DMA and would like to teach at the college level. He will make an excellent teacher because he has had to problem solve all along the way. He has never been able to play a certain way “because that is the way it is done”.</p>

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<p>I see what you meant now KeyofH. Since my D attended a performing arts high school, she had been doing bi-monthy recitals plus several other more formal ones throughout the year for 4 years. Her voice teacher at high school worked with them on audition etiquette, where to stand, how to go over timing with the accompanist and other peripheral issues. Her private voice teacher did more with the “acting” of the audition pieces since she didn’t work with her high school voice teacher on audition rep. The only issue was that the rep learned for high school was in addition to her audition rep so she learned French, German, Italian and English pieces for school and a separate set for auditions and an additional piece for her Spring recital with her voice teacher. That year prepared her well for learning rep this year as a freshman.</p>

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<p>Your son is an amazing young man, Shennie! I love reading about kids who overcome any kind of adversity, particularly in our very competitive music world! Congratulations to him, for his accomplishments. You should be very proud.</p>

<p>In retrospect, I think my son began working on his repertoire too early. He became incredibly bored of it, and in fact, learned two entirely new pieces before his last audition, which he played splendidly (from what I could hear through the door ;)!), although this was clearly a potentially risky move. I think there is a both a risk with working on repertoire too early, but obviously it is also risky to wait until senior year to begin this important work. When to begin audition repertoire depends on the amount of time a student can devote to practice, how quickly he/she learns technique, speed at which he/she memorizes, etc.</p>

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<p>shennie, I never realized that about your son. He reminds me much of a dear friend of my father, who also was born with just a thumb on his left hand. My brother and I were but wee tikes, and Mike was like an uncle. He had amazing talent, was a precision machinist by trade, an avid fisherman, a par golfer and a helluva baseball player. I never saw him confronted with a task he could not handle as well as a person born with ten digits.</p>

<p>Please shake your son’s hand for me, and tell him thank you for being.</p>

<p>I wish him continued success.</p>

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<p>Shennie, I wanted to thank you for sharing your cellist son’s story. He sounds very impressive as a person as well as a musician. </p>

<p>You also made a more general comment at the end of your post that caught my attention. You said “audition committees are looking for musicians, not folks who are all exactly alike.” I am interested in hearing views on to what extent the audition committees in competitive music programs (for undergraduate performance degrees in music) choose students that are varied in terms of their strengths as musicians. I don’t mean accepting students that are weak vs. strong, but admitting some students with greatest strength in technique, others with the most musicality, for example. Is there much consideration of more subjective factors such as potential, openness to teaching, etc? I know in vocal performance, potential has to be considered since the voice is maturing over time, so I suppose my question is more relevant to instrumental music. </p>

<p>With such large numbers of students these days auditioning for admission to undergraduate music programs as performance majors, is there much consideration of things that are individualized/unique about the student’s strengths as a musician, or should auditioning for college be considered like a competition where the students chosen are rated as the best overall in some quantitative or absolute sense? </p>

<p>By the way, about sample lessons…when a high school student takes sample lessons in college music schools, I wonder if in addition to giving the student an idea of what it would be like to study with a particular teacher, it also could give the faculty who give the sample lesson a more individualized view of the particular student taking the lesson. I am not suggesting this in a strategic way, just noting that it would provide more information about the student’s abilities and potential as a musician that might not be conveyed in the audition alone. Not sure if instrumental faculty are giving these sample lessons to so many students that they all blur together by the time of the auditions though!</p>

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<p>I think that it depends a lot on the teachers who are making the decision. They can certainly agree on students who have the whole package - musicality, technique, potential, personality and teachability (for want of a better word), but when faced with a choice between students who have different blends of those characteristics, there are some very personal decisions to be made. Once beyond the quantifiable traits, issues of personal preference can vary substantially among top performers and teachers. For example, you may find one teacher who is willing to take a chance on a student who got a relatively late start on their instrument and has not yet achieved the highest level of technique, provided that they play in tune, with superior tone and excellent musicality. Another may prefer students who play with flawless technique and great precision, reasoning that they can be trained how to do the rest while not having to worry about them hitting a wall because of technical issues. This is a big part of what goes into matching the student with the right teacher.</p>

<p>One teacher (whose name I will not mention) told me that he chose a particular student from among five or six highly qualified finalists for the one remaining spot in his studio because that student had the most interesting personality of the lot. He thought his infectuous spirit would resonate with future audiences and infuse some needed levity into some of his other students. The same student later told me that he had been eliminated from among the finalists auditioning for a particularly desirable orchestral position because the famous conductor of that group thought he was being too boisterous while warming up before the audition proper even started. Sometimes you just don’t know what is going to swing the final decision one way or another.</p>

<p>Sample lessons certainly work both ways - the student finds out things about the teacher and vice versa. I would imagine that some students may tend to blur together after a while, but those who make an impression one way or the other will be remembered come audition time. Another thing that can happen is that the teacher may notice how much or how little a student has improved between the sample lesson and the audition.</p>

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<p>Rigaudon: Here’s my thoughts, having just gone through the audition process with our daughter (voice performance). Different teachers may individually look for different things in different students, as BassDad points out. But, the factor which may really influence the decision-making process is the sea of competition in which the individual student is competing. In the top schools, your student will be competiting against kids who are strong in all facets of performance – technique, musicality, performance skills, etc. To me there were three valueable ways of understanding how an individual student might stack up in that competition. One way is the practice lesson. The second way is attending studio classes and hearing the level at which other students at a particular music school are performing, and the third way is to have your child assessed by an independent third party with extensive college level teaching experience, knowledge of the selection practices of the schools your student is interested in and experience participating on audition panels. Each of these three approaches has their individual flaws, but together they can give you a pretty good idea of your child’s competitive position within a particular school. </p>

<p>If I could wonder into discussion about another aspect of the audition process, regarding practice lessons – I tend to think practice lessons are invaluable on a number of counts, including the insight mentioned into your comments and BassDads. In addition, I believe they prime the pump and predispose teachers toward those students who have had practice lessons. For example, our daughter was admitted with generous scholarships to every music school where there was at least one person on the panel who had previously heard our daughter sing. She was not admitted to the one school where she knew no one on the panel. This could be coincidental – that one school happened to be the most elite and most competitive. We’ll never really know what lead to the rejection. In the second most competitive school our daughter was rejected on the basis of a pre-screening cd. We contacted one of the professors who had heard her during a practice lesson and she was mysteriously “un-rejected.” On the basis of her audition, she was later accepted into that school. Practice lessons at other institutions also resulted in her being exempted from the requirement to submit pre-screening CD’s. In still another case, the voice teacher advised my daughter to let him know when she would be auditioning so that he could arrange to be on the audition panel. So, there’s a lot to be gained from practice lessons.</p>

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<p>While I certainly agree with those who’ve pointed out the value of practice lessons before audition, some of D’s experiences lend a different perspective:</p>

<p>At two of her auditions D was asked by a panel member she hadn’t met before to take a lesson later that same day. D’s strength as a player is musicality more than technique, and it’s my guess that the teachers wanted to see how “teachable” she might be. She was accepted to both schools so the answer must have been satisfactory. The odd thing is that those were the two best lessons she had, and those were the two teachers she wound up deciding between in the end. There may be something to be said for letting the teacher pick the student. </p>

<p>At another audition, D spotted a panel member she had had a lesson with the previous summer – not an audition practice lesson per se, but a lesson nonetheless. It was a lesson she described, without further elaboration, as “terrible.” This professor gave no sign that he remembered her, and she didn’t remind him. He may have remembered nonetheless; D was rejected from that school, despite having played well, she thought, at audition.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for comments about my son. He has always inspired me, but he pretty much takes it all in stride. He actually thinks he is a better cellist BECAUSE of his disability, not in spite of it. I can’t really answer to that since I don’t play. </p>

<p>As to practice lessons, my son had 2 lessons with the teacher he ended up with at Eastman. He had the first lesson when he was still a freshman and it was pretty low key. The second lesson was in fall of senior year. The teacher asked him about various problems he had had in the past and what son had done to overcome them. Son was able to show the teacher an excercise that son had devised himself to deal with an issue. That kind of initiative and inventiveness would never have come up in an audition situation. Also, teacher was able to suggest certain changes and see how well son responded to those and, eventually incorporated into the piece when played at the final audition later in the year. I think both of these things helped cement an acceptance. </p>

<p>I do not know exactly what certain auditioners are looking for. I know that it varies from person to person. I know that at Juilliard, each person on the panel votes independently on a number of different criteria and the dean collects the scores from each individual and tallies them. No person on the panel sees the scores of any of the others unless they choose to share them. </p>

<p>I also know my son had one grad school audition where he had quite a few memory slips on one of his pieces. When he was done, he was kind of flustered. One of the panelists, a person son had never met, said, “That’s OK, don’t worry about it.” It calmed son down and he played quite well for the rest of the audition. He was accepted to that school with a very nice scholarship. The school was Juilliard. It just shows that you don’t have to be perfect to be admitted to the top schools, but you must play very well.</p>

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<p>I am in line with Bass Dad, it really depends on who is auditioning and the instrument. In a perfect world auditioners would be looking at a combination of things, they would be looking at personality, musicality and technique as well as potential, but that isn’t always true.</p>

<p>The example I used of Mendelsohn’s third movement with playing the vibrato wrong was not a hypothetical, I was told that one by a teacher at a major conservatory, that there were certain things others might consider "minor technique’ points that can get you bounced, and have that confirmed by other music professionals and teachers, who when prepping for auditions were told this by their own teachers, who were members of the faculty for the particular instrument. I also know of music programs that have become so obsessed with ‘perfect technique’ that they seem to have forgotten things like musicality, also known as virtuosity without pizzaz (or robot, take your pick), and that is pretty much what they look for (yet another program at the same school would have totally different standards). </p>

<p>My view is that you cannot assume going into an audition that all programs are the same, that requirements for one are pretty much the same as the other. There are music programs, for example, that don’t want hotshot talent coming in, but prefer rather someone who demonstrates good to excellent technique with large strains of musicality and understanding the music, others go for the hotshots whose only interest was winning competitions and being a hot shot soloist and who have little or no musicality and pretty much no understanding of the music (which in the end means on instruments with solo capability, they have little to no chance of making it, since soloist success is a lot more then virtuostic technique). I would agree with Bass dad, you do need to know what the people are looking for and what the philosophy of the program is. One tip off from a friend, who is a pretty well known violinist, is if the faculty has been there a long time, if the old timers dominate, then you can pretty much assume that teachers in the program were vetted and accepted by the longer term members, and that they likely have similar things they are looking for.</p>

<p>Again, it varies with the school and the area, but I think it behooves students to try and do some research, to find out what they might be looking for in the students they audition. It sure as heck can’t hurt, and I believe firmly it might be the difference between getting in and not.</p>

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<p>If all of what you say is correct, MusicPrint, this suggests that there are schools which are better for the “hotshot”, schools which are better for the “robot” and schools which are better for the “true musician”. I don’t see how it could possibly be quite that simple, but to the degree that this is true, the kids who fall into these various categories will probably find themselves placed in appropriate institutions.</p>

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<p>I’m with stringfollies, I have never encountered any school that “have become so obsessed with ‘perfect technique’ that they seem to have forgotten things like musicality.” I will take this statement as an exaggeration meant to prove a point, but I do agree with you musicprnt, that on the general it is never really possible to predict exactly what an audition committee will be looking for.</p>

<p>Case in point, the New York Philharmonic have been trying to find a replacement principal clarinet for retiring Stanley Drucker, who has been with the orchestra since the 1940s (forties!). They brought in hopefuls for numerous rounds of auditions, the applicants probably included just about any serious clarinet player in America. Had several finalists, who all were essentially celebrities in the orchestral clarinet community, and went through the final round over and over, and just couldn’t find a winner. Auditions are very costly for an orchestra to run, but they’ll probably just name an interim, and hold the process all over again next season. </p>

<p>It’s all about “fit”. Maybe lots of politics as well. Same thing happened a few years at the Chicago Symphony who were trying to replace oboist Alex Klein. It took them years, countless auditions, and who knows how much $$$. to name a permanent winner. And of course, each time they had an audition they ended up with the world’s most prominent oboists at the top of their games in the final round every single time; but just couldn’t pull the trigger.</p>

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<p>

Because it is not. Friend’s S was faced with competition with so many fine autioners at the same schools that it was not that simple. He was told that there were others who were not only technically superb, but displayed superb mutuality and originality too. So they did not have to choose someone demonstrating a lower level of music, even with superb talent. Much as Harvard rejects many who would be fine and acceptable students, these conservatories reject many who would also do well. It is not a straight forward and predictable process. Many factors can go into who is ultimately accepted. All you can do is prepare yourself the best way possible by understanding all these factors and doing your best to manage them.</p>

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<p>I never said it was simple, that was my whole point. Comments in this very thread say things like you don’t need to know what the people auditioning you are looking for, that if you are technically prepared, have musicality and originality, that will get you in, and I am saying that that is the simplification. </p>

<p>For example, with the NY Philharmonic replacing Stanley Drucker, the reason they haven’t chosen a replacement is they probably couldn’t get consensus on a choice, and one of the reasons is that there are differing interpretations of fit. And like conservatories, Orchestras tend to have a culture, one that picks people who fit and will maintain that culture, which is my point. If you audition for the Philadelphia Orchestra for a spot in their violin section let’s say, it is likely that what is a fit is different then the Philharmonic. With conservatories, though the teachers are not monolithic, when they pick people to teach at the school they generally pick people that fit the dominent culture, otherwise they don’t get picked. It is why you often see (not surprisingly) the graduates of a conservatory picked to teach there <em>shrug</em>.</p>

<p>The point is that fit is real, that on certain instruments schools of technique count, there are faculties in violin, for example, that are wedded to the franco-belgian style (think Ysaye), there are others that are more into the Russian style,and so forth, and someone with a different technique may face hurdles when auditioning there, and that is the point. It really depends on the school and the instrument and the auditioners, that is simply my point, that it isn’t simple, that musicianship and personality and expressitivity can work wonders in one school, where in another either it isn’t important or can actually work against you for having “too much personality”. My warning was not to assume that what you believe they want is what they are looking for, or assuming that they are all the same, there is a reason why conservatories, like orchestras, are known for very different things. The Berlin Philharmonic and the NY Philharmonic both employ top level musicians, but they are very different in how they play music, the Philadelphia Orchestra (least IMO) is very different then the other ‘big’ orchestras.</p>

<p>And no, what I wrote was not hyperbole, these are things I have been told by music professionals who graduated from a variety of conservatories and programs, and by teachers in the programs. My example of the Mendelsohn concerto was not made up, I was told that one by a teacher who teaches at various levels in one of the ‘big’ conservatories, and I have had that confirmed by others, that if you are playing certain pieces and there are variances from the expected (I am not talking sloppy intonation or technique, I am talking for example using a wide vibrato when they think it should be narrow) it will de facto disqualify you. Obviously, even there, it depends on who is on the audition panel, but there are trip ups and it isn’t necessarily poor technique or sloppy intonation, it could be having a different style then the majority of the panel members want to see…</p>

<p>Whether all schools are like this I cannot say, I don’t have enough knowledge, but I am led to believe that there is no such thing as the ‘perfect fit’ for all conservatories, and that a teacher can prepare a kid to the highest levels, that would be acceptable or more most places, and they could go to the school they have their heart set on and get rejected over stylistic differences, as one example criteria.The overall point is auditions are never fair, and that in the professional world, as with schools, that the auditioner does have to know what they are looking for, they have to know the kinds of things that will give them a leg up and use that. It is no different then looking for a job anywhere, there are places where if you have an ivy education with a 4.0 average unless someone is a total withdrawn wreck you have a strong chance of getting hired, there are others where if you come in with that kind of resume you are doomed <em>shrug</em></p>

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<p>I will agree that when it comes to orchestra auditions, all bets are off. Orchestras are usually looking for very specific things in their auditions. If you don’t have what they are looking for, it doesn’t matter how good a musician you are or where you attended school or who you studied with. However, I do believe that conservatory auditions are not nearly as cut and dried.</p>

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<p>I’m with Shennie on this.Look at the list of acceptances- why does someone get into one top school and yet, not another? There are many variables with conservatories that may be going on well behind the scenes such the every-present “network” that surrounds musicians! I have seen- or rather, heard- a couple of kids who, in my opinion, were not really up to the same standards as others on that audition day, but found out that their private teachers at home were friends with/had taught with/gone to school with, one of the teachers sitting on the aud.panel,etc. Sure, this happens all the time in business-that’s why “networking” has become such a buzzword, and is also why I caution young people to think at least twice and then, most of the time, shut up, before voicing critical comments in public. You never know who may be listening or reading and who knows whom. We’ve all heard of kids who came out of their closed room,eyes downcast, telling us “I really screwed that one up.Let’s go home”, only to receive an offer of admission soon afterwards. Who knows, maybe one of the panel thought the kid reminded them of the pain-in-the-rear cousin whom they always detested, and gave a thumbs down! Personal factors can and do come into play and there is no way to know since explanations are not required. I am just really, really happy that all of this is over for my D for another 4 years-except for the summer programs and auditions for…Ooooh Noooo!</p>

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<p>Shennie-</p>

<p>It depends on the conservatory and the people who do the auditions, of course, and different conservatories have different traditions. And yes, a student can get into a conservatory if they already study with someone there, or if the person knows them already from a summer program or whatever, and it can lead to a kid who is promising not making it while another one does. Is it the same as orchestras? Not across the board, it depends also on how the conservatory views itself and its admission. Curtis and Julliard are two top conservatories, but from my experience they can look for very different things (not to mention that Juilliard is much larger, so it will not be quite as competitive as Curtis, where you only have a few openings each year). </p>

<p>I cannot know all of this for certain, but some of it came from insiders, who told me how there can be things that can trip up an auditioner, and some of them are not gross mistakes, but rather stylistic things, and that is pays to do research before doing an audition. It is like choosing audition pieces, where in some cases it pays to take a risk on a more difficult piece of the repertoire and not play quite as sharply, or playing something “safer” perfectly, in some cases the first will work better, in some cases the second.</p>

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<p>Another example of the sort of thing that goes on - I was once told by a teacher at a major conservatory that they would never even consider accepting the students of another fairly well-known teacher, no matter how well the audition went. It had something to do with incompatibility in technique between the two teacher’s methods that would result in the student having to take time breaking a lot if ingrained habits before progress could be made.</p>

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<p>Good point BassDad, I have heard of that too, but just 2nd- hand The real problem is, would the school be honest and tell students applying that same thing so that they could save their money and effort? I’m sure they wouldn’t. I know that what you say is very true, but it angers me that those schools are “leading some students on”, if you will, if they would never consider the kid to begin with. Can you imagine an eager student preparing for said audition, going through the expense/time of an audition and then awaiting the decision, which had been made long before he/she ever send in the first application? How sad…</p>