Hard lesson re auditions

College Majors Music Majors
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<p>Friend’s S auditioned percussion in many places with a good distribution of schools. His dream schools were first rate conservatories within universities. He found disappointing results and sought feedback from the schools which willingly gave it to him. Although they said he was a talented musician with great promise, his selection on one instrument was not up to the same level of the rest of his pieces and not up to the level they expected for auditions to their programs. The rest of his pieces were fine, but others did equally well on those and did other pieces showing far greater skill on that one instrument. 3 of the schools said the exact same thing, as if they were reading form the same sheet. </p>

<p>He is capable of the higher level work on that instrument. His private teacher is an excellent instructor, worked on his selections with him and said nothing of the lower level nature of the one piece. Turns out his private teacher is very good at getting kids into the state schools and local choices, which friend’s S did make, but has not sent kids to conservatory level programs. He was not up to date on what is required in the current competitive environment. Friend’s S did not seek other coaching until the last week before auditions so that session could only be a tune up not a re-structure of the selections. </p>

<p>Hard lesson. Be sure your private teacher/coach has sent students to the type of schools you are trying to get into. If they have not, they will not really understand the dynamics of that level of audition and competition. If they have not, seek other resources, including advice during sample lessons, to best prepare yourself for what you want to achieve. </p>

<p>He is probably going to go to one of the local options and try again next year. But it would, have been so much easier to have been better prepared this year.</p>

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<p>Ouch. Hope your friend finds the right path over the next year or two. And thank him for the advice - it may well help my D avoid a similar pitfall next year.</p>

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<p>As a secondary thought to the excellent advice above, a corollary is the importance of summer intensives. It exposes a student to a much broader range of peers (and instructors) if accepted, and a repeated scenario of being denied admissions to some of the more intensive, competitive summer programs might have brought this deficiency to light sooner.</p>

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<p>violadad, you are right. Excellent suggestion. He came late to deciding on music and our HS does not typically send kids to conservatory level schools, just to those local options, so there is no real culture of summer intensives and anyone helping lead the way.</p>

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<p>I really suspect that the hard lesson is that this individual was not up to the level of other applicants. The choice of music may have not have been the best, but the faculty members who evaluated the audition are experts in assessing the abilities of the applicants. It seems that a lot of independent evaluations came to the same conclusion. </p>

<p>Should his teacher have been able to tell him he was falling short and suggest other schools? Well, maybe, but that is often difficult. Many students want to try for those reach, dream schools and don’t really want to be dissuaded. For any student who is interested in going on to a conservatory or music school it is really important to get some reliable independent assessment. Many kids and certainly their parents tend to underassess the competition.</p>

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<p>Current teacher has never sent anyone for even a music major, much less conservatory. Doesn’t mean she can’t, but I do get the sense that she is over-confident in D’s abilities.
D (sophomore) is a state-level musician. But that does not mean she is necessarily on track for conservatory. We have found out, for some reason, that a lot of serious music students avoid the all-state activities. I think some “elite” teachers look down their noses at this. I don’t think even these all-state activities necessarily give a kid an idea of where they stand as far as conservatory auditions.
Of course the student has to have the drive and do 99% of the work, but if they don’t get a sense of what they are up against it is especially heartbreaking.</p>

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<p>At the sample lessons S took early in his senior year he asked specifically about his chosen audition repetoire and got feedback from the prof. He also played his primary audition piece and was told straightforwardly where improvements were needed and expected the next time he was heard. Very helpful.</p>

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<p>In addition to the summer camps/festivals, auditioning for good, selective youth orchestras can help wind and percussion players see where they stand in relation to peers.</p>

<p>CLRN8MOM (love that user name!), your observation about state festivals is certainly true in the string world - at least in my experience. AND, I don’t intend to suggest that any student who is accepted and participates in All-State, Solo Contest, etc is not among the best - many are. It’s just that some teachers prefer that their students’ time is spent elsewhere.</p>

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<p>I think the same is often true for vocalists and state competitions and festivals. Neither my D nor her friends who are now music majors participated in chorus at the state level. D chose to take violin lessons in middle school rather than chorus and chorus was not offered at her performing arts high school. She was a member of a local auditioned children’s chorus for many years. Solgege instruction was included. That instruction, combined with choral work in several different languages was extremely helpful to her training. It is a tougher decision if there is no select local chorus available because choral work is important for sight reading skills and many schools do factor in sight reading in the audition.</p>

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<p>This raises a good question, about comparitive levels of students, about knowing how good a student is. My wife and I are feeling our way through this with our son, and it is amazing how much of a ‘disconnect’ there is between worlds of music and such. What is considered “wow” in one world is considered a yawn in the next level up a lot of the time.
I’ll give you an example, I know of a boy who was supposed to be the cat’s meow playing the violin, was routinely called ‘prodigy’, was written up in the local papers, was all state/all region on his instrument (concertmaster), was always ‘featured’ at local gigs…and worse, the kid had an attitude. </p>

<p>Well, kid tried out for Julliard precollege and didn’t even come close, was rejected literally 5 minutes into his audition (I know this for a fact, my son’s teacher was on the jury). The lesson here is it very easy to get bouyed up when other people hear your S or D play, or assume that the teacher, who has been telling you how great your child is playing, really knows what is required at the next level. A kid who is all state concertmaster might not even make it into one of the premiere youth orchestras, let alone as a concermaster, the levels are so different.</p>

<p>Story 2: My son’s private teacher teaches at Julliard pre college, is considered pretty high level.At the time he also was still seeing his old teacher, it was a kind of overlap period, and she had signed him up to get an ASTA evaluation. In doing the evaluation, he was playing one of Bach’s solo partitas, and when he got the evaluation back the women doing it told him that while she enjoyed the way he played it,he wasn’t playing it the right way, that Bach is not supposed to be played like that, the phrasing etc.Meanwhile, it was exactly the way his current teacher had told him to play it, and in fact on the strength of that bach missed getting into the Julliard pre college program by a hair (and yes, he played it as well at the ASTA thing as he did at his audition, his teacher heard the recording of the ASTA evaluation). If that ASTA teacher was trying to prepare a student for Julliard, the kid probably wouldn’t get far.</p>

<p>Auditioners have specific things they are looking for, and with many of them, if you botch it you are gone or even deviate slightly. For example, if a violinist is playing the third movement of the Mendelsohn concerto, and in certain places pulls his violin off the bow, or uses the wrong type of vibrator, they will disqualify him/her, and I have heard the same thing across the board for high level programs at all levels.</p>

<p>It is easy to find out what the audition requirements are in terms of pieces,but the real key is finding out what the auditioners are looking for.It takes someone who knows that and also takes a teacher who can teach to that level of requirement. Many music teachers don’t know what is required at a high level, they themselves were never there and never really learned about the details. Even teachers who are accomplished musicians, who for example auditioned and placed highly in an orchestra,may not know what it takes. That is part of what others have said in other threads, that high level teachers know a)what constitutes a high level player b)the relative level of competition and c)what exactly is expected. On the violin,and I expect other areas of music, the difference between good and great and fantastic are small things many of us non musical types wouldn’t spot, and it takes a teacher who can spot those and work on them that gets students to the high levels IME.</p>

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<p>Musicprnt, I think that you are absolutely correct that there are many levels of excellence and that before a teacher can offer opinions on a student’s potential, the teacher needs considerable experience with serious students. Ideally a teacher has taught or at least heard many students that have been accepted by a variety of good schools.</p>

<pre><code> My understanding and experience does not, however, entirely coincide with the following statements by musicprnt:
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<p>Auditioners have specific things they are looking for, and with many of them, if you botch it you are gone or even deviate slightly. For example, if a violinist is playing the third movement of the Mendelsohn concerto, and in certain places pulls his violin off the bow, or uses the wrong type of vibrator, they will disqualify him/her, and I have heard the same thing across the board for high level programs at all levels.</p>

<pre><code> While I would agree that auditioners are looking for certain attributes in an audition, I think that these attributes are not nearly as specific, arbitrary, or mysterious as you suggest. The qualities that auditioners look for are more along the lines of: command of the instrument, innate musicality, and potential to grow as a musician. At good schools, the auditioners are very wise and can recognize extraordinary talent when they hear it. These auditioners do not disqualify highly skilled musicians merely because they “deviate slightly” from the auditioner’s preferred interpretation of a warhorse or from their preferred bowhold or “type of vibrator” (latex vs. ???!).

Obviously, at competitive schools, the teachers conducting the auditions have many difficult decisions to make among students who can be very close in their level of talent/potential. Decisions often seem capricious, arbitrary, and unpredictable; one frequently hears of students that are admitted to certain very competitive schools and not to other less competitive schools. I do not believe, though, that auditioners generally disqualify students because of relatively small, insignificant aspects of their approach to audition material. The auditioners have a vested interest in accepting the best talent and they know that they can easily eliminate such minor annoyances as a violinist pulling “his violin off the bow, or us[ing] the wrong type of vibrator” at a certain place in the Mendelssohn 3rd movement.
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<p>I think our children and students will perform best at auditions if we instill a measure of faith in the rationality of the audition process and decisions (albeit the faith should be mixed with a large measure of skepticism of any human’s ability to make perfect decisions). </p>

<p>My son’s experience as a violinist is that while all of the experienced people he has played for have many suggestions for how he can improve his playing, the vast majority of them have not “disqualified” or rejected him based on those aspects of his technique or interpretation that they disagree with. To the contrary, they have almost universally recognized his talent and encouraged it. The only times that I have been disappointed in audition results have been when the judges have been very inexperienced (unlike the teachers who audition for placement in major conservatories) or in the early stages of senility (a discovery made a couple of years later!), or when, in hindsight, my son just simply did not play well due to lack of thorough preparation. </p>

<p>I do occasionally hear students, parents, and unwise teachers complain that the mark or result they earned was due to an auditioner who just “didn’t like my way of playing Bach” or “my particular vibrato.” When I have heard the student, it has usually been obvious that what the auditioner didn’t like was Bach that was played with disgusting intonation, ugly sound, and no architectural sense and didn’t like a vibrato that lacked any technical control, purpose, or musicality. While everyone has biases and personal opinions, auditioners for quality programmes have long ago learned to recognize their preferences for what they are and have learned to appreciate a variety of approaches to performing and interpreting the works that students commonly audition with. </p>

<p>You write that the “real key” to a successful audition is “finding out what the auditioners are looking for.” I don’t think that what they are looking for is any secret: they want talented, proficient, musical students. One doesn’t study with a teacher in order to determine what attributes an audition panel is seeking; rather one studies with a teacher in order to develop the rather obvious things that an audition panel is seeking. </p>

<p>I agree with your point that students should seek the best possible teaching from a person with considerable experience preparing students for the best conservatories/schools. I disagree with the idea that a couple of idiosyncratic bowings, or some illogical fingering, or alternate phrasing would prevent an accomplished performer who renders a convincing performance from gaining admission to good school. Small-minded, “my-way-or-the-highway” musicians definitely exist, but I don’t think that audition panels are largely populated with such cretins. The value of a good teacher is in her ability to develop a student’s level of technical command and interpretive abilities, not in her ability to second-guess an audition panel’s favoured fingerings or bowings. Good teachers can and do disagree on the details of fingerings, bowings, and interpretation. Those musicians who disqualify students on the basis of such minutia are not good musicians. Ultimately a musician is only as good as her ears. At the best conservatories, the ears are very, very good at detecting promise.</p>

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<p>Excellent post, violindad. I agree with everything you said, and I mean everything.</p>

<p>Most audition panel members at schools are not noobs. They can spot talent when they hear it, and it is always in their best interests to bring the very best into their schools. Wrong notes, flukey bad intonation, questionable fingerings, bowings, and technical slipups can all be easily fixed by a good teacher in a relatively quick period of time. A strong sense of innate musicality are what audition panels look for (i.e. understandings of the work’s phrasings, harmony, form; maturely approached lines and taperings; and really getting the character of the music)</p>

<p>“I do occasionally hear students, parents, and unwise teachers complain that the mark or result they earned was due to an auditioner who just “didn’t like my way of playing Bach” or “my particular vibrato.” When I have heard the student, it has usually been obvious that what the auditioner didn’t like was Bach that was played with disgusting intonation, ugly sound, and no architectural sense and didn’t like a vibrato that lacked any technical control, purpose, or musicality.”</p>

<p>This is SO true!</p>

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<p>So, I have an interesting question. Are there special steps that a teacher can take outside normal music lessons to prepare a student for his or her audition. The reason I ask this question is that about a year ago I asked my daughter’s teacher when she would begin preparing my daughter for her college auditions and what she would be doing to prepare her. Coming from the business world, I was looking for a specific strategy, set of tactics, and steps toward making my daughter as competitive as possible. I’m not sure exactly what I envisioned getting as a response, but it seemed like a reasonable question to me. The answer I got back was that the teacher would just continue with what she and my daughter were doing. When I tried to press for a better answer, the teacher got her back up, and seemed to resent the questions. Our relationship has never been the same. Both of us were insulted. Since my daughter loved her teacher, I decided just to butt out. However, it was not with some resentment and concern. Later when my daughter had practice lessons with university voice teachers and they remarked on the high quality of training reflected in my daughter’s singing, I felt vindicated at least in my stepping out of the picture. But I’ve remained curious as to why I couldn’t get a more meaningful answer from an otherwise very articulate teacher and how I might have better addressed my concerns. My daughter explains that this is music and that my thinking is too linear. I’m interested in hearing what you have to say.</p>

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<p>KeyofH, I guess the only reason the teacher might have been defensive, was that she may have thought that you weren’t aware that she tried to do her very best with the student at ALL times, not only during audition preparations.</p>

<p>Maybe she thought that you were suggesting she was holding back - when really she was from the very beginning trying to prepare the student to be the very best singer she can be, and maybe she took your question the wrong way. It’s as if she thought you were asking “Well, yeah yeah you do good work with her usually…but now she has auditions coming up - so can you improve your teaching better so that she’s more prepared?”, to which she may have taken up a reply like “Of course I’m doing my very best in trying to prepare your daughter for her auditions! Do you mean to suggest I wasn’t?!”</p>

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<p>When finalizing voice pieces for competition, my son occasionally takes a vocal coaching lesson from a conductor of one of the local opera companies. He then attended a Master Class offered by a chorus director of the more prestigious opera company in the area. One of the comments at the Master Class was “where did you learn that?” (he didn’t like it). After telling him, he said “I’ll have to talk with <name>”.</name></p>

<p>A few weeks later, he performed the piece at a regional music festival. The judge heard my son, and started his comments with something along the lines of: I have been judging a lot of middle schooler’s today, but I would like to offer you some real comments. He then went on to comment on the ornamentals.</p>

<p>His voice teacher explained the difference in philosophy for the ornamentals that caused the disagreement.</p>

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<p>This thread indicates the need that students have for independent validation of their talents. There are probably wider disagreement as to what constitutes good vocal technique as opposed to stringed instrument( my D in involved with both). All-State and ASTA are probably not good for judging relative talents. Competions and college auditions may be better.</p>

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<p>violindad, welcome to the fray and to the stringdad set of names - excellent first post. I agree with what you are saying, but would also like to point out that there are competing pedagogic traditions on some instruments. Knowing the bass world best, the obvious example is the Simandl approach that seems to work quite well for players with large hands and lots of physical strength vs what has come to be called Rabbath technique that seems to me to be based more on agility and playing across the fingerboard rather than up and down. (As an observer but not actually a bass player, I may have some of the fine points wrong, but there are distinct differences between the two.) There are eclectics with a foot in both worlds, but there are also people who are pretty strictly in one camp or the other. There is also the German bow vs French bow divide. Some teachers work well with students who use the other bow or the other technique, and some do not.</p>

<p>There are cases where a teacher may be unwilling to work with a gifted student because their approach to the instrument is fundamentally different, even though both are getting good results. In the audition, this may show up in rather subtle ways that might be seen as nit-picking, “my way or the highway” kind of behavior, but can also be a very reliable indication that the teacher would want this student to change so much about their playing that the student really would be better served elsewhere.</p>

<p>One example of this is the bass auditions at Curtis. Although very few schools actually ask advanced students to play their scales at auditions, it is Hal Robinson’s contention that he can tell a lot about a potential student by the way they play three-octave B-flat major and minor scales with arpeggios. At the Curtis bass auditions, that is one of the first things that he wants to hear from everyone and he is very interested in how they approach the particular difficulties that scale presents on the instrument. This can be disconcerting to those who have not put in a lot of work on that particular scale, but Hal has a pretty good track record for selecting and training students who manage to get jobs afterward.</p>

<p>Another example from the harp world is Salzedo vs French (sometimes called Grandjany) technique. There are teachers who will not accept a student who uses the other style and it is immediately obvious which is being used based on the presence or absence of certain gestures made while playing. To anyone who does not play the instrument the differences may appear trivial, but there are people who get quite worked up about the superiority of one over the other.</p>

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<p>KeyofH - I can recall being concerned that my D was not working on her audition pieces early enough too. I didn’t say anything because I knew this teacher’s students had a stellar record of admits. What I discovered is that she used other pieces to teach the technique and skills needed for the audition pieces rather than to use the audition pieces themselves. So, actually, she was preparing her for auditions for a year, even though they didn’t start on the particular pieces until later than that. She also knew the pace at which my D learned new rep and when to time it so the pieces didn’t become stale and that she would peak too soon. After sample lessons, all of the teachers told her to send a congratulations back to her teacher for giving her such good technique and guiding her to pieces that were age appropriate and demonstrated the strengths of her voice and skills.</p>

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<p>My idea of “preparing for auditions” was very different. I, probably in my uninformed state, envisioned that preparing for auditions would consist of lessons on poise, smiling, how to hand the accompaniast the music; how to signal to the accompaniast that you were ready to start performing; looking at the audition panel, not looking at the audition panel, how to leave the stage, how to dress for auditions, and other similar peripheral issues.</p>

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<p>I’m with you, KeyofH. I thought the same thing about “preparing for auditions” and happened to ask the same thing of my son’s voice teacher a year ago. He is soooo laid back that he didn’t think to get his back up over it. But, he also let on in a friendly way that he’s BEEN preparing my son for auditions - in his day-to-day voice lessons. Like you, I thought my son would need more guidance on the peripheral issues, versus actual singing stuff. What do I know? He’s also the guy that told my son, “Just pick a college, any college that you like, and apply. You only need one college. Why apply to more than one?” Oh brother. If only it were that easy these days! Funny. I’m sorry there was some sort of discomfort between you and the teacher after your innocent question. Sometimes it’s hard for us non-musician, linear-thinking business people to understand the musician’s psyche, I guess!</p>