<p>Thank you once again, Uroogla! APMA 1650 looks like a perfect fit to pair up with Math 35; it provides a nice opportunity to try both math and applied math right away without using up any free electives.</p>
<p>I’m still missing the point of retaking a more-rigorous version of an AP Physics C class when the subsequent class that follows only requires knowledge of the very basic version (based on the prereqs listed) which, I presume, one can place out of with an AP-5. So why not just take Physics 470 or Physics 500 right away? While I do get the sense that Physics 7 is a sort of pain-ladened macho proving ground for Brown’s top geeks (I say that affectionately!), I wonder if the extra rigor has any lasting value when the next professor only assumes you took the basic version.</p>
<p>Finally, my son thinks the CS-15 class looks like a lot of fun, more so than CS-17. Does it really matter later which sequence you chose to take?</p>
<p>Students do not receive AP credit for the Physics C E&M exam and needs to complete an intro sequence for the concentration requirements - it is impossible to place out of this requirement through AP scores (it <em>is</em> possible by IB scores). By completing a higher level course, they may receive credit for physics 3 (Mechanics), but that’s not enough for the concentration requirements. Exceptions would have to be made by Professor Tang in the physics department. In particular, your son does not have the prerequisites for a higher level fall term physics course, particularly 47. While AP C Mechanics may cover roughly the same material as Physics 3, 5, and 7, the same cannot be same of C E&M. Both 4 and 6 cover a non-negligible number of topics not on the AP exam, including topics in quantum mechanics. These missing topics are covered in 16 (which is why students taking 7-16 are prepared like those taking 5-6), but it would not be easy to convince a professor one has the requisite background for 47. 50 is a spring course, so it’s not currently an option. It is somewhat telling that the physics department recommends 5 or 7 to those with AP credit rather than anything higher. Prof. Tang would be the one to talk to, though. I know that in at least once case, he has granted permission to start in 16 rather than 7, so it does happen.</p>
<p>15-16 and 17-18 aren’t hugely different. 15 is roughly 250 students, compared to <150 for 17. 15 uses Java, so my course (3rd semester) finds these students do better on Java assignments. 17 uses a dialect of Scheme, which is substantially different than Java, so these students would have a (substantial) head up in the upper level courses that make use of this language. In general, I haven’t noticed any real difference between 15 and 17 students after the first few terms.</p>
<p>Thanks, Uroogla and Swim, there’s a lot of substance in your recent posts. Now let me see if I can summarize this adequately:
A number of the classes we’ve mentioned (Physics 7, Math 35 and 54) appear to be among the hardest freshman/sophomore classes offered at Brown
The best of the best math and physics students are drawn to these classes. One needs to pretty much be in the top 2-3% of the student body nationally just to be able to get into Brown. So, as a rough guess, we can estimate that the students in these specific classes are, on AVERAGE, in the top one-half to one-quarter percent in this subject area – and the workload is specifically designed to challenge such students.
So even a kid who is eager to work hard and fits comfortably within the higher end of this ability range (top 1/10th of one percent) could find himself stressed out if he combines too many of these courses at one time.</p>
<p>Does that sound about right? I’m trying to help my son pinpoint a challenging, yet not insurmountable, combination of classes. In the past, I found him to be at his happiest and most excited when taking on some ridiculous challenge; yet no one is immune to exhaustion and burnout. </p>
<p>Right now I see a possible first-semester schedule of Math 35, Physics 7, CS 15, and APMA 1650 and a second semester schedule of Math 52 or 54, Physics 16, CS 16 and APMA 1660. Physics 111 looks like fun, but is limited to 20 freshmen. If he were to get in first semester, what should he bump forward to ease the load? Math 35? Can Math 35 then be taken in the spring and 52/54 the following fall? How much out-of-class prep time would be needed to handle such schedules?</p>
<p>Also, is one exposed significantly to proof-based math in Math 35? How does one find out whether one loves or hates endless proofs BEFORE becoming immersed in Math 54? And if one opts for an applied math/cs concentration, should one just take Math 52 rather than Math 54?</p>
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<p>What’s the Physics C E&M equivalent of Physics 7 for mechanics? I don’t see anything in the list of courses that fills this gap (although someone mentioned a Physics 8 class, a class that does not appear on the webpage that lists “all” the physics classes.</p>
<p>For someone who is a math/physics person, CS17/18 tends to involve more puzzle-ey type thinking than CS15/16, which does a (slightly) better job giving students design/java tools, and 15 is geared more towards people who won’t continue past an intro CS, whereas 17 expects you’ll take 18 in the fall. 17 jumps almost right into algorithms and data structures, whereas 15 teaches a structured form of programming through large, often black-boxed (but interesting) projects. I know at least 3 of my friends took CS17 or 19, physics 70 and Math 35 in their first semester, along with one other lighter course. I wasn’t too far off (CS17, Physics 7 and Math 20, plus a humanities course), and I was pretty able to manage it (mostly by ignoring my math/anthro classes) despite having no prior CS background and an entirely inadequate background for Physics 7. It can be done, but one thing to remember is that first semester is the semester when you’ll find a large portion of your group of friends, and the importance of socialization shouldn’t be underestimated.</p>
<p>Math 35 is, from what I understand, almost entirely proof based. That being said, I don’t know that it will give you a strong feeling of whether or not you like math, because calculus is only a small, strange and (to me, anyways) far less interesting subset of math. I also believe whereas 54 is offered every semester, 35 is only a fall semester course.</p>
<p>Another thing to keep in mind is that most of these courses will have mandatory sections or labs. The CS courses I’ve taken have had a 2-hour lab once a week for most of the semester, and sometimes you will want to do some preparation for the lab before actually getting there.</p>
<p>Speaking more generally, it’s crucial to be mindful of time. Little thingslaundry, cleaning your room, going to dinnertake more time than you’d expect. Social time becomes very important (especially if you have a massive course load), and you’ll probably want to sleep once in a while. I passed up on taking math 35 my first semester, partly because I was intimidated, and partly because I was worried I would spend all my time working on it. I’m very glad I made that decision because I had free time to explore, meet people, and settle into college. (Of course, I did have that one friend who took 35, never did any work for it, and aced every exam…)</p>
<p>Also, see whether you can get a few more opinions on APMA1650. I had a few friends take it last semester, all of whom are math-CSy sorts, and they all found it quite difficult, in part because it was poorly taught.</p>
<p>Hui Wang is teaching APMA 1650 next semester. He’s one of the best in our APMA department, so I’m pretty pumped to be taking it with him.</p>
<p>Re. CS, those intro classes (15/17) can often be a lot more time-consuming than you’d expect, even if you’ve programmed before. The way it works is that people who take 17 like to tease people who take 15 about how they’re taking an “easier” class :p. IMO, I would have found 15 much worse because I find it really hard to wrap my head around black box code. I’d suggest that your son shops both 15 and 17 (consider 19 only if he’s a) already very comfortable with Java and b) willing to put a darn good amount of work into the class) before making a final decision – that’s what I did. Another thing to note is that I (and a lot of other people I know) find 18 significantly less time-consuming than 17, while people in 16 find it a lot worse than 15.</p>
<p>Thanks, folks – these posts have been great! Can any of you give us a course-by course estimate of the time needed to complete required homework and other outside projects for:
CS 15 vs CS 17
Physics 7
APMA 1650
Math 35 vs Math 20
a typical FYS class</p>
<p>Are there any negative consequences involved if a math/CS or applied math/CS concentrator takes Math 20 vs Math 35, or Math 52 vs Math 54, primarily due to the reduced workload when stacking multiple tough classes together at one time? By the end of sophomore year, does it matter which one you took as long as you’re earning solid A’s in most of the 1000-level classes?</p>
<p>I get the sense that CS 15, Physics 7, APMA 1650 and Math 35 is considered to be a crazy-to-impossible workload. Would CS 15, Physics 7, APMA 1650, Math 20 plus a FYS taken S/NC be easier timewise? Or bump Math 20 to the spring, since Math 35 wouldn’t be an available option at that time?</p>
<p>15 can get brutal towards the end because of the vastness of the projects, the time spent waiting for help from TAs (in lower level CS classes, you can’t talk to your classmates or friends about most assignmentsyou can get help only from the TAs, and the lines are often long). People might spend 25 hours a week on projects the last half of the semester. I’ve heard 17 had similar time estimates towards the end, but for different reasons (also bear in mind that projects in 17 are partner projects, which is nice, but it also means that you have to work around your partner’s schedule when coding).</p>
<p>Don’t take five classes (or your son shouldn’t, IIRC) first semester. Just don’t do it. There are too many other things to deal with.</p>
<p>FYS classes can be a lot of reading or writing. Or they might be easier than most other classes. It depends on the class.</p>
<p>There are definitely no negative consequences to taking 20 v. 35 or 52 v. 54 except that you will be exposed less to formal proofs. This is a positive or negative depending on who you are. Of course, there is some exposure to proofs in classes like CS22 anyway.</p>
<p>I think you’d be pretty insane to do CS15/17 + PH7 + AP165 + MA20/35. Freshman do this thing all the time and they almost always leave a semester like that burnt out and aware that they will never do that again.</p>
<p>I just want to strongly, strongly caution you and your son from jumping too deep, too quick before you’ve had a chance to calibrate to either Brown social life or Brown academic life. Both are dramatically different from high school and while there are a very small few that can handle the kind of load you’re talking about with ease, most people who get into Brown believe that they’re one of those few people.</p>
<p>There’s a reason hitters in baseball will often take the first pitch on their first at bat against a pitcher they haven’t seen. Personally, I see no reason to take AP165 first semester. Three high workload, math/physical science heavy courses is plenty of work and not taking AP165 won’t put him behind at all. I would virtually never recommend more than 3 math/science courses in a semester, especially when one is a CS class or has a lab attached.</p>
<p>Personally, I would take Math 35, CS17, PH7, and something totally out of the ordinary, preferably with writing, if I were your son. 35, 17, and 7 are very challenging but will provide him with a pure math course so he can learn if he likes pure math or applied math (and the answer may be no math, now that he sees college level material), a very strong theoretical CS start that jumps right into data structures and problem solving, and an intensive mechanics course that utilizes all the math he’s learned to go way beyond what he was exposed to in Physics C. This schedule would be extremely rigorous and would provide a test case for each possibility-- CS, physics, and theoretical math.</p>
<p>Finding out if you like applied math is as much about not liking pure math as it is liking applied math. You already know your son likes problem solving and basic level math so eliminating one path is just as good as reinforcing the other.</p>
<p>@Modest - CS22 is being discontinued. The department no longer has a formal introduction to proofs, which the upper level theory courses assume. We really have no idea how concentrators will learn proofs starting next year, and the department doesn’t seem to know either.</p>
<p>I think I mentioned this in passing…I have a few friends who took Math 52 and did fine in the upper level math courses. I don’t think I know anyone who took 18 and pursued math, but 18 is horribly taught. I don’t personally know anyone who took 20 at all. I do know that multi and linear tend to make a good number of students decide not to be math majors, as they’re much harder than and different from AP Calc BC.</p>
<p>When I took APMA1650, I spent less than 4 hours a week. However, I didn’t go to class and for whatever reason, probability clicked with me in a way it didn’t with the majority of the class. This amount of time was low for the course, though. Compared to the other courses listed, it’ll be less time, but it’ll also likely be hit or miss. I took it freshman year with CS19, but my two other courses were intro language classes and so not very difficult.</p>
<p>I’ve finally this term undertaken a schedule that was simply too much and burned me out, and I’m looking forward to reducing my courseload. Sometimes, it’s hard to realize at the start of a term how much work one is undertaking, and from midterms to finals, such a term is increasingly draining. Freshman fall is really not the best term to experience an overwhelming courseload - it’ll just make everything, social life included, difficult.</p>
<p>^ Agreed. How can they not offer discrete math/graph theory for CS concentrators… I took it in high school and saw the usefulness in it and I only had 2 years of CS… crazy…</p>
<p>Anyway, back to the “problem” at hand. I would recommend looking at the FYSes as the 4th course (and your son was blessed with having some really good ones as I saw many on banner). I took 2 this year in the Literary Arts department with Joanna Howard (Writers on Writing Seminar and Into the Machine). I HIGHLY recommend her Into the Machine class for your son as an FYS. It’s on Sci-Fi based works (plays, novels, philosophy, movies, etc). There are half science concentrators/half humanities concentrators usually for the type of class it is. It sounds down your son’s ally if he wants an exposure to a lit class.</p>
<p>Or he could take ENGL 110, which is a basic writing course (which is immensely helpful. I didn’t take it and I regret it so I’m taking it next semester). It’s really a relatively simple class (mandatory S/NC), but a lot of writing and teach how to write on a college level. I skipped it because I got a 6 on my IB English HL exam and thought “Oh, I’m definitely a good enough writer!” but the classes purpose pretty much helps for every writing class you’ll have in college. </p>
<p>Those are 2 recommendation of a 4th class. Really, don’t let him take 5 classes… Not yet and definitely not more than 3 math/science classes unless he wants to really ruin his first semester. I don’t know one person that took 5 classes who was a math/science concentrator first semester (since, imo, first semester is more about getting used to the college transition than trying to finish your concentration which gets changed 10000000 times your freshman year).</p>
<p>^They’re attempting to teach proofs in 45 (the new CS intro to probability/stats course), and then 51/its new incarnation will have to deal with some of the stuff 22 offered (I think kind of like how 32 and 36 were combined into 32, I think). Admittedly, it seems like 32 has become a lot worse since 36 was folded into it (every year has gotten pretty terrible reviews, at least from the people I know who took it), so I don’t know how good a plan this is.</p>