<p>What courses do you think are the hardest here at Brown?</p>
<p>Orgo. APMA 1650. The languages. Complex Analysis. Geo 22 (imo), Hip-Hop culture (shockingly enough). That’s all the notoriously difficult classes I can think of. Ones that are kind of known around campus. There are a lot of hard courses (majority are difficult). The advanced classes are normally people within the concentration.</p>
<p>It really depends on you. I found APMA1650 and languages to be incredibly easy but was murdered by CLAS1310, which most of my peers found trivial. MATH1260 also depends heavily on the professor, strangely.</p>
<p>I think almost all of us can agree on Orgo…though there’s a guy on my floor who’s finding it to be really easy and doesn’t see what the fuss is. I’d imagine lots of upper level classes in departments, which the average student will never take, are among the hardest. LATN1820, for instance, is more time consuming (and you need to do all of the work to be prepared for exams) than any CS course I’ve taken or heard of. I’d imagine many upper level classes are like this in other departments too.</p>
<p>Really? Hip hop culture with Trisha Rose? I’m pretty sure my daughter took that.</p>
<p>APMA 1650 is not difficult, it is just badly taught.</p>
<p>General consensus from my time at Brown included:
Math 35
Operating Systems
Intensive language courses
BI53 (changed though when the professor’s switched)
Physics… 47 I think? E&M. People used to complain more about Physics 8 when I was a freshman but I think they changed it dramatically or even eliminated it.</p>
<p>There seems to have been a recent numbering change to the course catalog. Math 35 is 350? MA 161 is perhaps 1610 because I don’t see a 161 listed? What’s the actual pattern for the change (an added zero?) and are there some class numbers that are confusingly ambiguous between old and new number system?</p>
<p>Also, what’s the benefit of taking an “honors” class as opposed to the standard one?</p>
<p>For 99% of classes, the conversion to the banner system, which was first implemented for courses in Fall 07 (if I recall) was to basically just add a 0 to the end, as well as convert the 2 letter department code into a 4 letter one.</p>
<p>BI53, when I took it with Bungiro (who I believe is the “new” professor) was far from difficult. I believe it used to be taught my Campbell? I took BI155 with him, and that class was ridiculous. Literally any word that was uttered during class was fair game for the test, and his 3 hour exams somehow managed to test you on all of them.</p>
<p>I took it before Campbell. It was co-taught by a Chinese and a French professor. Forget their names. I was a sophomore and it was my first bio course. 2/3s of the class were senior or junior concentrators and there were even some grad students. One freshman in the whole class. 150 or so folks to start. I’d say less than 60 sat for the final.</p>
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They’re generally more intensive, cover the material in more depth (though not necessarily any better), may be required for some concentrations, and seem to prepare students for upper level classes somewhat better.</p>
<p>Operating Systems with lab is tough (but not the hardest course in the department by any stretch of the imagination, and it’s 1.5 credits so you should expect to do work for 1.5 CS classes (i.e. 23 hours a week or so)). Just the OS course isn’t nearly that bad.</p>
<p>Uroogla, I was looking at Linear Algebra (math 520) vs Honors Linear Algebra (math 540). The honors version requires Calc 3 as a prerequisite, the standard version could be taken in parallel with Honors Calculus (math 350). If my son wanted to get a solid start with a math/cs concentration, it would make sense to get these both these lynchpin/roadblock math courses out of the way first, so he can load up on math second semester while he finishes his second lynchpin/roadblock CS class. That opens his path completely second year. So is the honors version necessary for the math/cs concentration?</p>
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<p>Are there other math/cs 1.5 credit courses that can be paired with this one? Or some 0.5 credit classes, outside of music?</p>
<p>Math-CS requires 52 or 54. I do recommend 54 over 52 for anyone who will be taking abstract proof courses (like the required 153), but there are people who do fine with 52. I would <em>not</em> recommend taking linear with 35 unless he has a solid background in one or the other. 35 and the intro CS sequences are time consuming, and those without a proof background tend to have trouble with linear for some time. Let freshman fall be an adjustment period and don’t overdo it. The Math-CS degree can be done with no math freshman year and no more than 1 math course a term thereafter (what I’ve done), so there’s no huge rush unless math grad school is an option (and even then, students generally don’t do 35 and 52 at the same time). And with that said, 54 does not use multi at all - technically, the student just needs to get an override.</p>
<p>I simplified Operating Systems a bit. Here’s the full story. CSCI1670 is a 1 credit Operating Systems course. It’s challenging but not insane. CSCI1690 is an optional concurrent “lab” worth 0.5 credits. That’s where the real challenge comes in, material-wise, since you’re actually programming a functional operating system.</p>
<p>There are very few 0.5 credit courses and no 1.5 credit courses at Brown (only LATN0310 and GREK0310 come to mind). You really don’t want to try to take 5 credits with 167/9 anyways, and 3.5 and 4.5 credits are entirely reasonable options for that term.</p>
<p>Thanks, Uroogla. The thing is, math comes ridiculously easy for my son, who’s never been challenged in a math class and has never cracked open a textbook to prepare for a test. He’s a look-at-it-once-and-move-on learner. Taking a couple of math classes, along with a physics and an intro CS class would, for him, be taking it easy the first semester. What would you recommend by way of an intro physics class? He got 5’s in all three Physics B and C AP tests, and may seek a second BA concentration in physics, along with a math/cs or applied math/cs BSci concentration.</p>
<p>Math in high school, even AP level calculus, is nothing like what you’ll see in MA54.</p>
<p>The best placement for him for physics would be PHYS0070, the hardest intro mechanics course. It will share some similarities with AP Physics C, but would hardly constitute a review. My understanding is that students design their own labs for that course, too, which would be a change from AP Physics. I sincerely urge him not to underestimate the workload of Math 35, Physics 7 and CS 15, 17, or 19 together. There exist students who do those three courses together, but it’s generally much harder on them than they expect (Math 35 tends to serve as the first challenge for those who breezed through AP BC Calc…finding AP Calc easy doesn’t necessarily mean a math degree is suitable…applied math might be better, as that tends to be more in line with how AP Calc is taught). For one with no background in multi or linear but who still wants to accelerate himself, I’d recommend 35 in the fall and 54 and (101 or 153) in the spring, based on aptitude. 101 is the safer bet - 153 is really not a great choice with 54 unless one as a very strong background in proofs.</p>
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<p>What about PHYS 160 (intro to relativity) or 0111, which sounds like fun, but is limited to 20 freshman students. How hard is it to get into such a class? Is there a particular reason that one NEEDS to retake an intro mechanics course, even if it is taught a bit harder? His retention is superb. And won’t this stuff come up again later elsewhere?</p>
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<p>Well now, workload and difficulty are two very different issues. Is doing homework mandatory? In CS, obviously, but in math and physics? Or is it just suggested, so that you can do well on the exams? Given his freedom, my son would tackle a few of the hardest problems to test his comprehension, but doing lots of similar mid-level problems take a lot of time and don’t benefit him one bit – he simply does not learn through drill and repetition.</p>
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<p>We honestly have no way of gauging what might turn out to be too difficult for him. My son isn’t just a “top” student, he’s been called “the best student of my career” by at least 5 of his math and science teachers. He’s just started a little spare-time “fun project” with a long-distance mentor, who’s going to run my son through a compressed version of a graduate-school advanced statistics and data-analysis class taught at CMU. We’ll see how he does on this, and whether it energizes him or humbles him. THEN he’ll choose his Brown classes, with the help of your insights.</p>
<p>For the Math 54 class, I’m in it now with a very strong background and even a general linear algebra class before entering college. Let me tell you that it is NOT at all easy and very little high school math will tell you how well you will do in the class. The tests entail about 50% application/50% proof, but the homework is nearly all proof-based (which sucks because not only is it harder, but it also doesn’t give you much practice of the applications for the exams). You need him to understand that college math is so different from high school math. The proofs are seriously a hit or miss for a person. A total miss for me. My math 54 professor encourages people to take linear algebra before multi (which I can understand to a certain extent). If your son would rather start with 54 than 35, he just needs to e-mail the professor and most likely the professor will give him an override into the class. </p>
<p>Homework is mandatory and I’m actually doing my math problem set right now. It takes me ~10-15 hours to do it a week + office hours. It’s very very difficult and VERY time consuming. Even when working in groups. Really don’t underestimate the math and sciences here. Even us math and science concentrators are daunted by these classes. My textbook ranges from having 4 - 7 problems per section on average. Some sections have 13 questions (which is not fun) or have none at all (but still might have a proof about it on an exam…). It’s much more than you are thinking right now. Not saying he won’t excel, but that he’ll have a horrible 1st semester with too many problem set classes at a generally advanced level. </p>
<p>As for that 20 person class, it’s an FYS. There’s a lottery mid-summer. If you don’t get in it, nbd. It’s generally easy to get into FYS even outside of the lottery.</p>
<p>Skipping classes without credit is something I advise strongly from. Remember, your son’s going to a school where EVERYONE was the best. Every single person taking the advanced physics and math classes are pretty much geniuses in that field. We’ve all had extensive math and science in high school with 5s on AP/7s on IB. Please take what we’re saying to heart because there really is no rush. math 54 is offered every semester (while 35 is not). phys 70/80 are offered only in fall and spring respectively. It’s better to be smart and think about which hard/work-heavy classes you take when.</p>
<p>I do know that after AP Physics C, with a 5 on both parts, I would not be able to do the majority of the homework problems for Physics 7 (I’ve tried to help people before with only limited success). 16 is a good course, but it’s a spring course. He might as well take 7 in the fall - he may find he learns more than he expected. If your son is taking physics at Thomas Jefferson, though, he could probably get out of 7. They teach physics to that level (well above AP standards). Your son can do whatever he can get an override for, though I still highly advise him to reconsider.</p>
<p>Homework for all of those classes is collected and graded (I’m a grader for math 54, and I see how students are doing. Most students struggle with the proofs, and quite a few are having trouble with these latest topics). For the courseload you suggest, we’re looking at probably 60+ hours of graded homework a week, even for the top students. For anything below the top, it may be simply impossible. Does your son have experience with AIME/USAMO? Although not incredible, good scores on those (not the AMC, though) may suggest he’ll find 35 and 54 easier than many of his peers will. In 54, the problems are seldom repetition. There tends to be 1 or 2 numeric problems on each concept, as well as some proofs ranging in difficulty from relatively easy to hard enough that the grader can’t do them. Assignments contain roughly 15-20 problems per week for 54 (and I gather 35 is worse, though I happily skipped this course), and it’s not unreasonable for students to take hours on some of the harder problems, especially trying to work out errors in their proofs. I’ve watched homework averages drop into the low 70s, and I’m grading only the easier problems - the material is not easy for anyone. Depending on the CS course and one’s background, it may be hard and time-consuming, just time-consuming, or incredibly hard and time-consuming. There exist students who take Math 35, Physics 7, and CS19. They take something easy as a fourth class and they don’t necessarily do well in all 3. It’s important to realize that one’s peers have distinctions like representing one’s country in the International Mathematics Olympiad or strong performances in the USAPhO or have many years of programming experience. These courses are not easy even for these students. Your child may be at that level, but it’s hard to say, and he may be making his freshman year absolutely miserable with this workload, even though these are subjects he enjoys and does well in.</p>
<p>Thanks, Swim – that helps me gain some perspective. While I won’t be choosing the classes in the end, I know my son has a tendency to overindulge in stuff that interests him (he’s taken as many as 13 classes at a time in high school, including online, college and self-study APs) – and sometimes looks pretty exhausted.</p>
<p>What do you experts think would be a good combination of 3 math + physics classes to go with the first CS course first semester? (They should all count toward the concentrations). He’ll probably tack on non-core classes as a 5th S/NC selection – although perhaps not the very first semester.</p>
<p>And what exactly IS the difference between math and applied math? My son is concerned that applied math will just hand you formulas to use, as in precalculus and honors physics in high school, without teaching you how those formulas were derived. I, on the other hand, get the sense that he’s more of a pragmatic kid who would mostly rather solve problems than do endless proofs all the time.</p>
<p>Math 35 and Physics 7 seem like clear options for courses. He may wish to consider APMA0350 or APMA1650 as well, since this will give him a sense of whether APMA is for him or not. The latter would count to either APMA-CS or Math-CS, while the former is required for APMA-CS. There are few good upper level (100+) math classes that start in the spring, and there’s no practical reason at all to take Linear before them - linear can be taken concurrently with 101 or 153, and that’s much more common than 54 and 35 concurrently. Many of the sequences (153-154/156, 113-114, 161-162, 111-112) start in the fall anyways. 153 freshman fall with no background in advanced mathematical proofs is a recipe for disaster, 113 will make no sense before 35 is completed (and likely little sense after, based on what I’ve heard), 161 would make ample use of 35 and probably 54, and 111 assumes familiarity with several very important theorems and concepts in 35 and 54.</p>
<p>With the exception of statistics/probability, APMA tends to derive the formulas in class but focuses on application in the exams rather than proofs. There isn’t a complete dearth of proofs and the questions are generally not straightforward application of formulas, but it’s no pure math class. To put that into perspective, I’m taking Abstract Algebra (a required course for Math-CS). My problem sets tend to be 9-10 proofs with no numerical/formula questions each week. 111 was not much different - despite its name as Ordinary Differential Equations, the course did not solve differential equations until the final week. The rest of the course was spent proving theorems about Differential Geometry applicable to the topics. Probability/Statistics is the exception to this trend, but a good chunk of of Probability and Statistics cannot be rigorously proven without measure theory (covered in graduate-level real analysis courses), sort of like much of calculus cannot really be proven without analysis.</p>