"Hardest Curriculum Available"

ParentOfIvyHope · December 5, 2009, 4:55pm

Generally college reps are aware of the rigors of the HS unless it is an obscure one i.e. no one ever made it to that college from the HS.

Pizzagirl · December 5, 2009, 5:13pm

Oh, come on, now, POIH. There are how many high schools in the country? Something like 30,000, I believe? If a college comes across a high school that they haven’t heard of, then it’s their job to figure out through the school profile what the hs is like.

It also seems quite funny that colleges are all about “diversity” yet supposedly if an unknown hs crosses their path they are going to go, “Oh, no, never heard of that hs, not going to let that kid in.” It doesn’t make sense. Part of diversity is not just recruiting from the usual-suspect elite prep and elite public high schools. There is nothing exciting about a college class made up of kids only from Andover, Harvard-Westlake, the Latin School of Chicago, Scarsdale High, New Trier High, and Edina High.

Columbia_Student · December 5, 2009, 5:18pm

^^That is along the same BS I heard from D1 high school counselor. Something like "we’re the only school in CA that was invited to this admission conference with all the preppy East Coast high schools ". For 2008, even the valedictorian with 2400 SAT /4.0 uw GPA did not get into to her dream school.

ParentOfIvyHope · December 5, 2009, 5:19pm

I said college rep are aware about HS rigor unless a HS is unknown to them. It doesn’t mean they will leave the child out. They will certainly try to understand the school from its profile.
But if HS is already known to the reps then it is easier to put the application in perspective than to come up with a perspective from a profile of HS totally unknown to the rep.

It does happen but it’s hard otherwise why are there states that don’t send even a single student to top schools while there are HS which always does.

owlice · December 5, 2009, 6:16pm

A good question. It used to be that students went to college when they were ready to go; the standardization of education across the country now has kids moving almost in lockstep with their state curriculum, most rigorous or not, instead of moving at their own pace. That HS diploma credential is oooooh, so necessary, you know! Too bad highly-able students can’t simply take the tests necessary for graduation when they feel ready for them – rather than at some prescribed time in the curriculum – and move on when ready.

Of course, many colleges aren’t set up for younger students. There are far fewer 16-year-olds living in college dorms than 18-year-olds, and that can make for some uncomfortable situations for some 16-year-olds who start college early. One of my fellow students in boarding school centuries ago was 15 and was there because there just weren’t many good places for her to go: she’d already finished high school, and going to college at 15 is something few kids did back then… or do now.

Queen_s_Mom · December 5, 2009, 6:30pm

I wrote about this a while back but in D’s school her GC informed her that to get the “most rigorous” checkmark, she had to have taken at least 16 APs during high school. Her 7 APs are just substandard I guess.

This is really getting ridiculous. There is no time at all for kids to take interesting electives and explore possible interests. Everything from 7th grade on (foreign language for HS credit) is focused only on getting in to college.

momofthreeboys · December 5, 2009, 6:48pm

Queen’s Mom…only if parents as taxpayers or as tuition payers for the privates “allow” that to happen.

Queen_s_Mom · December 5, 2009, 6:51pm

^Ahh, but the taxpayers in this district practically demand it. The housing around here is through the roof because the district is so “good”.

Dad_of_3 · December 5, 2009, 7:37pm

HCA seemed to be a relatively universal mantra in the information sessions of many of the higher rated schools we attended, but even here we didn’t get a full understanding. Take CMU, for example - they emphasized how importantly they viewed AP courses, but then went on to say that they didn’t give any weightage to the actual AP score in the pre-admission stage. Specifically when I asked if they would consider 5s that S had in Phy/Calcs/CompSci by end of junior year towards proficiency in his proposed major, they said he would obtain no advantage compared to someone else with weaker AP scores even though the presenter indicated that for S’s proposed major the Math/Science SAT scores were uniformly high for most applicants.

Similarly, since DS & DD were not interested in areas such as social studies and languages, I supported their decision in not taking courses such as AP Euro history (which I’m told takes up a lot of time) and AP Engl lit in favor of them doing things outside of their formal coursework in areas of interest. The response I got in one presentation was that they preferred the student to do both.

calmom · December 5, 2009, 8:13pm

Yes definitely, as long as the passions are evident from the profile that is presented to the college (and the “passion” is something that the college would deem worthwhile).

My d. did a lot better than top 50ish on admissions, and her high school academic record had gaping holes in it – largely because she opted for a semester-long foreign exchange in her junior year, in a non-English speaking country. Because of scheduling issues that pretty much meant that there was no serious math or science after her sophomore year. I think that she was only able to take 2 year-long AP courses and maybe 1 or 2 semester-long AP classes. (She did end up taking more AP exams than courses, and scored well on them).

She did make a point of addressing this “weakness” in her college application. Part of the attraction of the foreign exchange for her had been the sense of doing something really challenging – I mean, its a big leap for a 16 year old to live in a foreign country with strangers and attend high school where every class but “English” is taught in a language you don’t understand. (My d. also learned that in her host country, there aren’t enough text books to go around to everyone, and the text books don’t have much in the way of illustrations or pictures … and it is damn hard to read a high-school level text written in a language where you have the vocabulary of a pre-schooler).

My daughter thought that the “challenge” of the foreign exchange was far more demanding than any “challenge” she could have found in her home school curriculum – and her essays and personal statement illustrated that point.

I think there are many types of passions a student could be pursuing that would also be seen by a college ad com as perfectly good reasons for bypassing the super-charged AP track in high school – but obviously it has to fit the profile of the type of student the college is looking for. (My d. also was applying to elite colleges with strong foreign language programs – the weaknesses in her high school curriculum were counter-balanced by unique strengths in her areas of interest).

I think too much emphasis is put on that “most challenging curriculum” question – I don’t think that question is put on college apps with super-competitive high schools in mind. I think they are more geared to typical high schools which may have limited AP offerings. The ad coms might be looking at an applicant who is interested in sciences but has only taken one AP science course – but perhaps at that high school, that one course is the only one offered in the sciences. So “most challenging curriculum” is an easy way to confirm that, indeed, that particular high school does not offer much more.

It is also helps when the ad com is comparing multiple applicants from the same school – it could be that the kid with the highest GPA has a lighter or less-challenging courseload than applicants with lower GPA’s – so that also is valuable information.

But I don’t think that the colleges want burned out, manic studiers who have managed to take 22 AP classes in high school for the sake of checking that “most challenging” box.

Also – I am not sure if there is an official policy on when that box can be checked, but I’m pretty sure that there are plenty of g.c.'s who look at is as a category rather than a competition. That is, they might check “most challenging” for every student at their school who has taken at least 6 AP courses, even if 15 courses are offered.

starbright · December 5, 2009, 8:17pm

I do not believe that taking the most challenging course load necessarily results in the best education and I know most college educators think so too. Having been through graduate school, and having watched and counselled many graduate students, I have seen what the ‘firehose’ approach to education achieves.

If all your spare hours are spent jumping through hoops, meeting requirements, doing required reading, cramming…you may get best looking transcript, but such an experience leaves almost no time for deep thought, integration, connections, and reflection. I am not sure how much is retained. I’m not sure if what is retained is what should be retained. One also needs time to process, to actually THINK, to SLEEP…and go outside, follow intellectual interests and sink deep…not to mention read books for fun, follow the news, develop one’s life in other ways (so many experiences outside of coursework that are much much more educational, developmental and more likely to prepare one for college).

I’m just not convinced such a firehose approach- gigantic amounts of demand of one’s time in coursework to take say the 12 APs- makes a student more educated or prepared. And I think its sad and wrong that a side effect of the current college application system sets up kids to compete in a game that may be detrimental for many of them, even if they ‘win it’ at the end.

melin720 · December 5, 2009, 8:37pm

<<How do you know it’s harder – have you taken courses at all the high schools?
And how can you call other folks “slacker lazy deadheads”?

BTW, in case you didn’t figure this out - you going to a “better” public high school is not YOUR accomplishment, it’s solely a function of where your parents chose to live (and 9 times out of 10, it’s a function of parents’ finances). Are you suggesting that kids who happen to not have parents as well-to-do as yours should be penalized for that>>

Not my accomplishment? Every one of those slacker deadheads can come to MY Magnet school, and 70%+ of them who came DROPPED OUT! Didn’t you read my post? They have the exact same opportunity as I do, but they chose not to have it and come here; too lazy to ride extra 30 minutes of bus or just plain slacker deadheads? Or they are so blind that they can’t see that our school spends extra money to send out buses to out-of-zone places for magnet program purposes? And most of the dropouts from my magnet program go back to his or her zoned school and have a huge boost in GPA. And they admit that it’s a lot easier, too. That’s how I know. And my counselor also admitted that our program is the hardest in the district (there are 4 others). We also use a grade-distribution system where there has to be a spread of As, Bs, Cs, Ds, and Fs in every IB class. The majority has to be in Bs Cs range, with a few in As and Fs. It’s annoying, really. Some people work their ass off just to pull off a C or B. I don’t know how other IB schools do their grading system but mine really sucks.

<<jhs>> Thanks for your clearing up the myth that neighboring high schools get the same advantage as magnet programs. They don’t, and I’m glad.</jhs>

marite · December 5, 2009, 9:10pm

There seems to be a disconnect at many schools between what GCs think adcoms want and what adcoms actually do want.
Yes, adcoms want the most challenging curriculum that is both available and feasible. But they realize that scheduling makes taking only the most challenging courses impossible at most schools. In addition, they do not universally worship at the altar of the AP curriculum. Which is why many colleges do not consider APUSH an adequate substitute for taking the college intro US history, even if the same colleges give credit for APUSH. Ditto for many other AP courses. By the same token, however, they realize that an AP course may be the most challenging course available at an applicant’s school even if it does provide not the best possible coverage of the topic. But I believe this applies to the core curriculum unless a student wants to major in a field that is not part of the core curriculum (e.g. music or art history).
Take the core curriculum: social studies, English, foreign language, math, physics, chemistry, biology. If a student were to take the most challenging class in these fields by the end of senior year, that student would end up with 6, perhaps 7 APs. (Many foreign language APs are for Year 5, which makes it difficult for students who started the language in high school to reach AP-level).
I recall that someone posted that the average number of APs by MIT students was 4. It’s possible that some of them took college level classes in addition to APs, but it’s not necessary so. GCs who push their students to take more than 4-6 are not doing their students a favor.

blossom · December 5, 2009, 9:16pm

Marite, my son (MIT grad) went to a HS that only allowed AP’s senior year.

So to apply to ANY college with more than 3-4 AP’s was truly unusual- Calc BC and AP stats met at the same time; AP Physics and AP Chem met at the same time; etc. So this was a well thought out forcing device on the part of the school to reduce the college admissions arms race, and to encourage the kids to take AP’s in the subjects they truly loved (or were good at) and then explore electives that they were interested in.

I read here of the kids doing 8-10 AP’s and I am astonished. I don’t think a HS sophomore has the maturity to do justice to AP English or literature (yes, you can slog through Crime and Punishment at age 15 but do you bring any perspective to it whatsoever?) and having heard from so many college adcoms that the “AP Lite’s” are there to appease ambitious parents but have no bearing on admissions decisions.

So to all of you with juniors- encourage your kids to work at their highest potential; there’s nothing wrong with a struggle with subject matter that doesn’t come easily, but your kid shouldn’t be killing themselves to get through HS.

And let the chips fall where they may.

Tmac18 · December 5, 2009, 9:18pm

The only AP offered for Sophomores at my HS is AP US History, which I took. I got a 4.

Then there are many more offered over the next 2 years, but many overlap and really the most anybody takes in a year is 3 (you need special permission to take more).

MomLive · December 5, 2009, 9:19pm

That is what I understood the GC at our school to mean. I don’t even think there is a minimum no. of AP courses - it’s more about taking advantage of the opportunities afforded to you. If you did not to attempt to get into any AP classes, then yes, you won’t get the ‘most demanding’ designation. If you are a C student with very few honors classes, then you won’t get the ‘most demanding’ designation.

But if you took only 5 AP courses instead of 7 - that makes no difference, even if there are kids who took 12. You still availed your to the most demanding curriculum. At least, that’s how I think it works at our school. Maybe it’s because our school is so restrictive about allowing kids to take AP courses. It’s actually easier to get into the IB program than it is to take AP classes.

melin720 · December 5, 2009, 9:24pm

I did AP and IB, so now I stacked up 16 AP/IB classes, or 16 college level classes.

Not worth it. Completey suicide. The IB curriculum made me focus on 2 extracurricular activities; I excelled in one but the other one was just above-average. It’s sooo much work!!!

MIT has average of 4 APs? Are you serious? Hell, if I only have to do 4 I’d be in HEAVEN!! NOOO!

Whatever, this stuff is too complicated and too controversial.

melin720 · December 5, 2009, 9:46pm

We allow freshman to take AP, so let’s just say that our school has its flaws.

There are people who went overboard with 20 AP/IB (IB has different curriculum and our school also offers AP). I think those 20+ people had a 80 points IQ drop or something because of not getting enough sleep.

Keilexandra · December 5, 2009, 9:49pm

We’ll see how I do in admissions this cycle… AP courses are the definite weak spot of my application–only 6, with a mere 2 in junior year. My school offers about 20; but a combination of math/science focus (not my interest) and 4 years of Band leads to schedule sacrifices. Thankfully, my GC checks the “most rigorous” box for everyone who takes at least 4 APs.

whiteagle · December 5, 2009, 10:14pm

At my HS the top 5 - 10% of students have taken at least 10 APs. I’ve take 13. I’m very surprised when I read that six is sufficient elsewhere (or even 4!).

We start our math early as POIH’s daughter’s school.

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