<p>Our high school also allows freshmen to take APs–and a good thing, too, as no one size fits all. So there are definitely students who can graduate with more than 4-8APs and a few college courses as well. But the main point is that while some adcoms look for academic superstars (Harvard reportedly admits 300), these do not constitute the overwhelming majority of admits.</p>
<p>IIRC, Stanford has an average of 5 APs.
I still think the number of APs to take depends on the context of each high school. If a high school offers 20 APs, then 7-8 APs are probably average.</p>
<p>Actually, I’m glad that my kids’ high school didn’t allow AP’s until junior year. I think that the AP classes in general were too much breadth and not enough depth, and focused too much on test prep rather than developing understanding and analytical skills. I do think there should be advanced classes for the kids who are ready for them, but I don’t think those kids are well served by the AP model.</p>
<p>^ Totally agree calmom. I’m delighted that D can’t take any until 12th year. Her private school offers few, discourages students from taking them, and offers lots of challenge in the regular curriculum. It hasn’t at all hurt their very good college placement but the kids are not overwhelmed in a race.</p>
<p>The comments on this thread make a strong argument that this is a concept whose meaning should be made clear to the students of each school so they know the rules of the game. I doubt there is any standardization regarding the "most challenging curriculum’ designation at our high school among the various counselors, even. There is so much that isn’t fair about how it works at our school. For example, we also had instances of “secret” math tracks that only a few kids were put on. Were they smarter than the average bear? Some were, but many got there merely because their parents paid lots of money to send them to math classes all summer every summer. Then our high school keeps changing its mind about the point values in our weighting system (D’s GPA was calculated one way for freshman year, and a different way thereafter), about when students are allowed to take certain honors and AP classes (until this year, you had to take this bogus global studies class to graduate. This year, and after D had already taken the stupid class as a junior, the requirement was changed and now you can substitute APUSH for that class. So anyone who was planning to wait until senior year to take it, now has the chance to take one more AP than anyone else and thus gain an advantage in the game (and for class rank). And a kid could take one AP math class each year at our high school and still be behind the level of some students. We have 7th graders being bused to the high school to take AP Physics (the second year electricity and magnetism one for engineering) It’s just insanse! A regular very smart kid with 10 AP’s doesn’t stack up well.</p>
<p>melin720, are those 16 DIFFERENT AP/IB courses, or did you do both AP and IB for some?</p>
<p>GFG, I wholeheartedly agree! Our school changed the way classes were weighed from kid #1 to kid #2-- much to the detriment of kid #1. And supposedly, there are no APs until 10th-- except they published one kid’s schedule and it showed she had taken numerous APs starting in 9th grade. And money is a whole other issue-- we never had the $ for the summer math or CTY programs but, since I transferred my kids to a top school, many colleges didn’t really considered them underpriviledged either. (It seems you can’t be poor if you live in suburbia. Somehow, that is synonymous with inner city.)</p>
<p>I’ve just looked at the profile that our HS sends to college. It explains the academic policy at some length, including what AP courses are offered, how many AP courses a typical student would take, how many AP and honors course combination the school would allow; it listed the SAT scores, AP exam stats, GPA distribution etc. It even tabled how many students go to any particular college in the last three years and so on. Like many others have said, it depends on your school. Call the CG office and take a look at your school’s profile.</p>
<p>I am very thankful that we don’t live in a community with a high school like POIH’s (or GFG’s). </p>
<p>A schedule like that works very well for a truly gifted kid who is bored stiff in most classes and needs the challenge. The problem is that only 1-2% of high school students really fit into that category. And so the other top 5-10 percent are forced into a grueling schedule that means giving up fun and sleep. As marite and others say, it is possible for most smart kids to take a challenging curriculum of just a handful of AP classes, still have a life, and get into top colleges. At least, it should be. </p>
<p>I’ve asked myself the same question as starbright (“Why not just let qualified kids skip highschool and go straight into college?”). I think it’s absurd that high school kids are graduating with enough AP credits to be college juniors. We need to dial the system back a couple notches.</p>
<p>We have friends whose son had a similar story as jnsq’s daughter. He took 13 AP classes in high school and didn’t get into the Ivy he applied to. Here’s the one difference: it was his parents who insisted that he take those classes because they wanted him to go (and felt he deserved to go) to this Ivy. He absolutely despised taking most of those AP classes, and was miserable all the time. Even today, his parents claim that taking all those APs was “the right thing” for their son. Obviously this family has some issues, but their high school enabled the parents to push their agenda on their miserable kid. (The story has a happy ending for the kid, who ended up at his dream school (for which he didn’t need to take as many APs) and is happy as a clam. The parents are still furious that their son didn’t get into their dream school.)</p>
<p>One problem with AP is the illusion that they are the equivalents of college courses when that is not the case for most.
Another problem is that many schools are not able to provide courses that offer a gradually increasing level of difficulty without labeling some AP.
For a couple of years, our high school dispensed with Honors. So good students were forced to go from heterogeneous 9th and 10th grade classes in sciences where the teachers had been told by the new principal to prepare materials for a 6th grade reading level to accommodate struggling kids to AP classes in the same subject. Not all students wanted to be in APs, but if they wanted to go past the introductory level, there was no Honors class they could take. Luckily, that misguided principal resigned and her successor reinstated Honors.
I think that students should be offered courses at varying levels of difficulty to accommodate their different degrees of preparation and interests. But labeling the more advanced courses “college equivalent” is, in my opinion, not a good idea.
Someone suggested that my kid skip high school and go straight to college (the person who did had been miserable in high school, but found his true peers at MIT). I am glad that we did not follow that suggestion. Not only did we not want a 14-year old college student, but S learned a lot and matured a lot in high school.</p>
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<p>Exactly. This was the point of my earlier post Re: the “secret” math track. Even if a student is capable of/wants to take the “hardest curriculum available”, how is that done if the student and his/her parents are unaware of those options? This bothers me.</p>
<p>Most schools publish a “standard” curriculum that shows progression from one level to another. For example, our high school’s 9th grade curriculum for math showed either Algebra 1 or 2 for most entering students (except those who wanted to take the Integrated Math Program). But some students need far more advanced courses than these. What to do? Ask whether it is possible for them to take such courses. I would not expect a school to publish all possible curricular permutations. But I cannot imagine a school would demand that a 9th grader take 9th grade math if he’d already taken AP-Calc. Nor would I expect that a school publish a curriculum where it is possible for a 9th grader to take MV-Calc.</p>
<p><this was=“” the=“” point=“” of=“” my=“” earlier=“” post=“” re:=“” “secret”=“” math=“” track.=“” even=“” if=“” a=“” student=“” is=“” capable=“” wants=“” to=“” take=“” “hardest=”" curriculum=“” available",=“” how=“” that=“” done=“” and=“” his=“” her=“” parents=“” are=“” unaware=“” those=“” options?=“” this=“” bothers=“” me.=“”></this></p>
<p>I was in the same situation. I didn’t know much, so I spent a week digging and asking questions about my curriculum. I came out with the most rigorous schedule and what to take and not to take.</p>
<p>If the parents and whatnot don’t bother to ask questions then they get half of the blame. The other half goes to the school for keeping the information in a freakin’ safe. But you can easily open it by asking damn questions!!!</p>
<p>FallGirl:</p>
<p>Some schools do have a “secret,” accelerated math track - it’s common in my neck of the woods that some students follow a completely different, i.e., customized, program, particularly in math.</p>
<p>It falls on parents to be savvy enough to ask about accelerated options - best done when the student is in sixth or seventh grade. Please know that this works only for high performing math students - those who won’t find the regular coursework (even AP level) particularly challenging.</p>
<p>This all dawned on me when S1 was in middle school and I noticed that the Algebra I honors he was taking seemed really easy for him (also, all of his standardized testing was in the 99% percentile in math). In high school, we requested that he double up on math classes in 9th grade and 10th grade (his year now). He skipped Pre-Calc./Trig altogether. He’ll be finished with all of the math his school offers at the end of this year and he’ll start math classes at a LAC. This is good for him - he finds the math fun - not a grind at all and the success has given him needed confidence. At his school, one student every few years follows this path.</p>
<p>No one at either of S1’s school ever mentioned any of these options to me; I had to initiate the conversation, but once I did, they were very helpful and supportive and I met with little resistance. Schools may be wary about advising kids to accelerate because they really don’t know if the student is ready or willing or if parents understand and value the benefits of acceleration. Looking back, we probably could have accelerated him even more in middle school, but I’m not sure that there would have been much additional benefit.</p>
<p>When S was in 7th grade, the 7th and 8th grade science teacher told us at a parent-teacher conference that the 8th grade curriculum (mandated by the district and supposedly more advanced than many curricula nationally) was unlikely to be challenging. We made decisions accordingly and S was able to skip several grades in that subject.</p>
<p><<melin720, are=“” those=“” 16=“” different=“” ap=“” ib=“” courses,=“” or=“” did=“” you=“” do=“” both=“” and=“” for=“” some?=“”>></melin720,></p>
<p>DIFFERENT. Some are combined, but not included in the 16 total count. If I do combine them then it’ll push me over 20.</p>
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<p>That’s fabulous! </p>
<p>We found the exact opposite with our district. Son was in a much-coveted competitive entry science/tech magnet program, which, we learned, doesn’t accommodate acceleration very well at all. The school figures that kids in the program are accelerated enough, I suppose. Families have to push very hard if they have kids who’ve been accerelated a lot in math and need more challenge. I know of parents/kids who’ve left this program because it just doesn’t accommodate that top 1-2% well at all. </p>
<p>My son took a year’s math course, only to find that the next year, fully 50% of the material was a repeat from the previous year – ON PURPOSE!! By design! I was shocked that this was the case.</p>
<p>What a waste of his time! He’s not at the school now; he went to college (Simon’s Rock) after 10th grade instead.</p>
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<p>I did. </p>
<p>I have an older child so I now know some of the “secrets”. I have a number of friends whose oldest child is in Middle School who have no idea that these things can be done. These people are active and involved parents.</p>
<p>And by the way I feel that a student should have an education suited to his/her abilities regardless of how savvy the parents are. What about a student whose parents do not speak english, are not familiar with the culture or for a variety of other reason are not able to ask?</p>
<p>melin720, I hear ya. S2 will have 13 APs and 6 IBs, with some overlap for the SL exams. NOT applying to Ivy. </p>
<p>S1 benefited from someone in the central office back in third grade who saw his scores and knew he needed to be someplace different than our neighborhood elem school. She worked around the hostile local school and got him into an appropriate placement with other age peers who were also similarly advanced. There was a real track there, but one had to be savvy enough to know how to find it. A parent on another listserve happened to send me an email saying that her school had already selected its candidates for this program, and if I hadn’t heard anything, I should follow up. Thanks to her heads-up, we did, and we discovered that the local school had actively sabotaged his application. </p>
<p>Some high schools’ offerings truly are college level – S1 placed directly into analysis at a T-5 math department and even higher placement in comp sci on the strength of his HS work. Those high schools are few and far between, but I sure am thankful they were possible for S1. We did not want to send him to college at 14.</p>
<p>The kids can learn to be savvy and advocate for themselves as well. My S (now a senior taking MV Calc, having completed Linear Algebra last year) was accelerated in math. By 8th grade, he was ready for Algebra II, which was only offered on the HS campus, luckily right next door to the MS campus. After issues regarding different bell schedules were ironed out, turns out there were 4 of 8th graders going each day to HS for this class. Around day four, S comes home and advises he has a new math teacher. When I asked why, he said the “gang of four” discovered they were not in the HONORS Algebra II class, realized that was where they needed to be, and met with the principal to make the change happen. All by themselves.</p>
<p>Freshman year, S comes home to say he has a different teacher for Global Issues Honors. I asked why and he said he just went to his GC and said he wanted to be in the other class with the larger contingent of high powered students. Supposedly, these kinds of changes are not to be made, but he charmed the GC into doing this for him and he’s been charming her ever since. I’m sure his own high level performance helps him get what he wants, and I hope what’s he’s learned by taking this initiative will carry forward as he deals with the bureaucracy of where ever he lands for college in the fall.</p>