<p>Ideally, each student should have a curriculum that is tailored for each. In practice, it is not possible. curricula are drafted to address the needs of the majority, not the 0.01% who function at a higher level. I am surprised that involved and savvy parents do not ask teachers how best to keep their child properly challenged. Is it because they are happy said child is getting all As with little effort?</p>
<p>Some schools and curricula that are supposed to attract the more advanced students can be quite rigid. This is one reason we were not unhappy that our district does not have a gifted program. It actually made it easier to advocate appropriate acceleration for our S.</p>
<p>I think part of the reason the schools tend to keep these alternative ‘tracks’ secret is you often get parents pushing to put their kids in an accelerated program when they don’t really belong there. </p>
<p>I’m not suggesting anyone here did that. Certainly, a kid who has taken AP Calc before HS deserves an individualized accelerated program. But at my S’s school (which is a private, college prep school) you have a lot of parents who demand things for their kids even when that kid hasn’t proven him or herself. There’s a big difference between a kid who is obviously gifted and one who might have potential but hasn’t proven themselves yet. I’m always amazed at the parents whose kids barely made a B in a regular class and yet demand they be put into the honors or AP the next year. Sometimes the school does give in but the results aren’t usually good.</p>
<p>I’m not saying the schools are right to keep this information on the down low but I suspect that is why they do it. They’ve tried to get around this at son HS by requiring that a student meet certain criteria before they will be admitted to Honors and AP courses. In my son’s grade, there are 5 students who are so academically gifted in math that they had a special teacher brought in just to teach these seniors. That only happens once in a blue moon - unfortunately for my son, his senior class is one of the most talented to come along in the school’s history. In an ordinary year he would have been closer to the top 10% of the class. He is more like in the top 25% because of these outstanding students.</p>
<p>I will say this - our public schools will rarely work individually with a gifted student - they might put them on a slightly accelerated track but that’s it. We do now have a gifted middle school (didn’t when son started school) and an IB program in the county. That’s where the really gifted students tend to go. </p>
<p>The fact that the public schools in our area refuse to work individually with students is what caused us to pull son out and put him in the only college prep school in the city. Once there, he was sufficiently challenged and has never really needed a lot of individual tracking. He has been on one of the more accelerated tracks since middle school and it has worked fine for him.</p>
<p>MomLive, we’ve found at various points that having the challenging peer group is even more important than the level of instruction. We’ve found that finding that “critical mass” enables the kids to go farther and faster than they would have on their own, and the fact that it’s with classmates their own age (vs. a 14 yo taking DiffEq at a local college) makes it even sweeter. It was a win-win, academically and socially. But yes, both my kids took a hit in the GPA because of it. It has worked out fabulously well for S1, and now we are hoping for a great outcome for S2 as well.</p>
<p>I am just flabbergasted by the number of APs kids take that is routinely quoted on this thread. </p>
<p>In S1’s top magnet school with only with 60+ kids, they only offered only a few APs courses, while the rest of the classes were automatically honors and several courses were jointly offered at a community college that was in the same campus with the high school (actually the HS was on the campus of the community college with a large, sprawling campus). The HS curriculum simply incorporate these CC courses as their own, and they came with college course credit.</p>
<p>In S2’s suburban HS, APs are not offered till the junior year. Furthermore, they severely limit the number of kids who are allowed in AP courses. For APs in core subjects (English, History, Math and Science), they screen kids and only allow about 7-8 % of all the kids - the joke is, it’s more difficult to get into these AP course than get into some universities. Furthermore, they have to be qualified as a block: if you did not excel in English in freshman/sophomore years and did not get in the English AP, you are NOT eligible in History AP either. Science and Math were paired also - you are poor in Math, well, you can’t take Biology honors or AP even though among sciences, biology does not really depend on Math…</p>
<p>On top of that due to the scheduling issues and whatnot, the THEORETICAL MAXIMUM of total APs one can accumulate is 10, and that’s if you sacrifice 3rd or 4th year foreign language, etc…</p>
<p>With all this crazy stuff going on in each school with such wide variances, will the colleges be able to decipher the “AP encryption code” that various high schools are concocting?</p>
<p>I agree, hyeonjlee. In my kids’ school, there is only one possible AP for a soph (AP USHistory). Theoretically, a junior could load himself / herself up with 5 AP’s but it would require sacrifice and it wouldn’t be doable for a kid who is in music or arts. </p>
<p>I know the POIH’s of the world are so impressed by the race to accumulate as many AP’s as possible, but personally – what a rat race. I gave my kids “permission” to opt out of AP’s in the areas that don’t particularly interest them – D is mathy-sciency and S is history-humanities. I’m really glad I did. The amount of effort an AP course takes means that you should only take it if you have sincere interest in that area, IMO. Not just to accumulate notches on the bedpost.</p>
<p>There is a pe-requisites for each AP at DD’s school too: e.g.
AP Calc BC(AB): B+ or better in Hons. Pre Calc and so every other sequential math course up to it.
AP Statistics: B+ or better in Hons. Pre Calc and so every other sequential math course up to it.
AP Physics C: B+ or better in Hons. Physics and AP Calc BC
AP Chemistry: B+ or better in Hons. Physics and Hons. Chemistry ( Or summer Hons. Chemistry)
AP Biology: B+ or better in Hons. Physics, Hons. Chemistry, Hons. Biology ( or Summer Hons. Biology)
AP Environmental Science: B+ or better in Hons. Physics, Hons. Chemistry, Hons. Biology
AP World History: B+ or better in Hons. English and B+ or better in the last History
AP Euro History: B+ or better in Hons. English and B+ or better in the last History
AP US History: B+ or better in Hons. English and B+ or better in the last History</p>
<p>AP English Language: B+ or better in Hons. English II
AP English Literature: B+ or better in Hons. English III or AP English Language.
AP Foreign Language: B+ or better in Hons. FL III</p>
<p>AP Computer Science: B+ or better in Programming and B+ or better in Hons. Pre Calc </p>
<p>Everyone who qualify gets to take the AP Course.</p>
<p>POIH, are you aware that at other schools, they don’t have honors prior to the AP? That you have (say) regular chemistry and then you go into AP chemistry? You have history and then you go into AP US or Euro history? Not every school has all the honors / AP your daughter’s school does at every level. It would be nice if you understood that her school is an outlier, which is why it’s such a rigorous and expensive school.</p>
<p>S2 in the suburban public school mentioned above, the school that severely limit the number of kids allowed to take APs, is not aiming at top 10 schools. Rather, he will be looking at top 40-80 schools.</p>
<p>Are the adcoms in this type of school (top 40-80) equally crazed about super AP loads??? S2 is taking 3 AP courses as a junior now. In his school of ~350 kids, there are only about 10+ kids or so who are taking more APs than he (I am guessing based on the class size). </p>
<p>(By the way, based on S2’s saying, his AP courses are order of magnitude more difficult than the honors classes. yet, they do not put more weight AP more than honor class either. It’s all whacked out there).</p>
<p>These “options” that are not ever “mentioned” to parents aren’t meant as some sort of hidden, special track for savvy parents. They are customized programs that are implemented to meet the needs of individual kids whose ability level demands acceleration. We’re talking about kids who are bored to tears in elementary or middle school & parents who are agonizing over how to possibly structure their kids’ education to meet their need – so at that level the parent initiates a conversation that is NOT “what is the highest achieving academic track at this school” … but “is there any possible way to modify the curriculum here to meet my child’s needs?”</p>
<p>In high school… I personally think that these “secret” tracks need to be something the kid arranges on his own. If the parent needs to be involved in the process of arranging the placement … then by definition, the kid doesn’t belong in those AP classes in any case. My kids attended different high schools, but both had systems that allowed the kids to apply to get into AP classes by following a specific process. Both of my kids came home, told me that they were following that route (or not) without my ever raising it, and each kid did the extra stuff that was required to meet the requirements. My son had to enroll in an added, non-credit writing course his sophomore year which involved series of essays, as that was the process for getting into AP English; my d. had to write an essay about why she wanted to get into the class. At my d’s high school I heard other parents complain about not knowing about the procedures or deadlines for these things – but I’m pretty sure that the kids were explicitly told in class what they had to do. </p>
<p>If the goal is to complete the “most challenging curriculum” for the sake of impressing a college ad com… its the wrong goal. The colleges are looking for kids who seek challenge on their own, not for kids whose parents are driving the process. Obviously, a high school transcript isn’t going to tell the college ad com why a particular kid has taken 12 AP’s. But – here’s the really big “secret” – that’s one area where those letters of recommendation play a huge part. The teachers definitely CAN tell the difference between the kids who are actively seeking challenges and the bright, well-behaved kids who are simply trying to do what seems to be expected by the adults in their lives.</p>
<p>One of the reasons that some schools may not offer many APs is the proximity of colleges where high schoolers are allowed to take courses and then sit the AP exams. So the availability of many APs (or lack thereof) should not be the sole barometer for measuring the curricular rigor of particular schools.</p>
<p>You may want to see just how rigid the policy is. Many (most?) things in life of value are not “offered” but are “taken”. </p>
<p>Our school had tracks that generally start APs in the junior year. Based on other parents’ opinions, I found out that in the math/sciences, the level of instruction was not sufficient for the student to consistently get 5s. So as a true Asian father, we did a lot of math, comp sci, and some physics in middle school, and though the HS GC was dead set against it, S was able to complete 3 math/sci APs each in his sophomore and juinor years with 5s. As a bonus the weighted GPA played to his favor because not too many kids had that many AP (times 1.2) courses on their transcript. What I’m trying to say is that if you are confident you have the resources, and your child can handle it and, more importantly, wants to, you shouldn’t let the school dictate when you should start AP classes. </p>
<p>That’s because Philly’s regular public high school education can’t hold a candle to Masterman, etc. (This said from a Philly public school grad). Now that I’m in NJ, I can see that there are so many great public high schools that can compete. :)</p>
<p>Calmom: Do you seriously believe that if a kid doesn’t have the moxie to demand an accelerated class for him/her self, then they don’t belong in the class at all? Sorry, but I’m not a believer in the “bold shall inherit the earth” philosophy. Many kids, including my introverted math/science S1, would never think to challenge the system. And because of his quiet demeanor, he should sit in a boring class covering material that he already knows?</p>
<p>I know when to step in and when to step back, and it is good and acceptable for parents to intervene when they’re needed. That’s our job. It’s great that some kids have the confidence to advocate for themselves with adults, but don’t confuse self-confidence or moxie with academic ability because there is really no relationship between the two.</p>
<p>I’m a little disturbed by the lack of criticism for high schools having “secret” tracks. [EDIT: And of course, Olive007 chimes in to do exactly that.] Due to district reorganization, I switched schools and went from G&T 3rd grade to regular 4th grade with a former 2nd grade teacher, and I learned practically nothing the entire year. My mother laments now (7 years later) that she should have pushed for me to simply skip to 5th grade, or to switch to another teacher’s classroom. But we’re immigrants, my parents’ grasp of English still isn’t very good, and they only know about the routine advocacy by “savvy” parents after living here and seeing what American parents do. The same thing happened in middle school–I heard (as a student) about 6th graders put into Algebra I, when the official highest math track was Pre-Algebra. I’d been taught pre-algebra in 5th grade, but it never occurred to me or my parents to confront the administration (in a language they still speak uneloquently) re: placement.</p>
<p>Should a kid be penalized because their parents weren’t “savvy” enough? IMO, curricular tracks should NEVER be a “secret.” There ought to be consequences for schools that do so. If having open, fair policies causes more headache for the administration–well, I sympathize to an extent, but I sympathize more with the kids who are otherwise left out.</p>
<p>Please note that I meant “savvy” somewhat facetiously. In an ideal world, accelerated programs, special tracks, etc. would be available to all who would benefit from them. The world should be that way, but it’s not; hence, “savvy” really means being an advocate for one’s child - not a new idea for many parents. </p>
<p>Those of you who have children who take the initiative and sail through life’s challenges are truly blessed.</p>
<p>At our middleschool, there is no secret track. The math teacher will select some kids who are at a higher level math to go to our local high school for the next level of math class.</p>
<p>I’m 100% with Olive007 on this one. I can’t picture most 8th graders or freshmen challenging the HS GC on what courses they should be taking the next year. Also imagine if she let him talk her into taking courses he couldn’t handle and then had to deal with the parent as to why the GC did such a “stupid” thing. In our case W & S were there with GC, we provide evidence of his competence, and all three of us took responsibility for our request. Helicopters are OK for 8th and 9th graders.</p>
<p>Re the discussion on “secret” tracks - I’m not sure what the secret is if everyone in school who cares to know realizes what class a student is in. I see it as “published” tracks that the school recommends for the 90%+ of students and any other tracks that are worked out on an individual basis which are not published because it doesn’t apply to most students and it would just be confusing.</p>
<p>This thread has been an education for me. I had been wondering how so many of these kids amass such a curricular resume.</p>
<p>After all that, I am actually somewhat glad at the limited opportunity my DS has had in his flyover state, mediocre at best, 600/class public HS. His school only has 6 periods (with optional 7am class with few offering), and by the time one takes the required PE, performing arts, practical arts (cooking or woodworking) etc. there’s not a lot of room for much other than basics. Only AP’s are USH, stats, calc AB, Spanish, English and US Govt., none of which appear to be much work judging by his workload. He has managed to get good scores on standardized tests despite his lackadaisical academic exposure and honestly, getting the ‘most rigorous’ designation has not been difficult. We have done some acceleration (skipped 6th grade) and he could take some classes at the mediocre at best local college but logistically thats hard and he seems satisfied enough with his current state. Bit bored, but not tearing his hair out. I guess he’s used to it after almost 12 years.</p>
<p>Likely he won’t be as prepared as some other students if he matriculates at a T10 school, and he understands he may have to do some catch up. But, in exchange, he has really had a pretty stress free HS experience as far as academics goes. And the more I hear about the intensity of some of these kids HS curriculum, the more I shake my head.</p>
<p>So he took the ‘most rigorous’ courseload available at his school, and he’s had it super easy.</p>
<p>There are others, as you have noticed, who killed themselves taking ‘most rigorous’ courseload and nailed their GPA as a result.</p>
<p>If colleges really do only look at you in contex to your high school, then, seriously, yours who didn’t do much in high school will go to an Ivy League while the other guy who had to work his ass off would not. </p>
<p>****es me off how the colleges do this. It almost makes you want to go to an easy school on purpose.</p>
<p>I don’t like the idea of anyone killing himself or herself to achieve the most rigorous possible curriculum. Nor do I like the idea of students cruising through school.</p>
<p>I do know that I might have wanted to strangle my S if he had been so unchallenged as to cause mischief in class and complained unceasingly at home. Once he got into the more challenging classes he craved peace and harmony reigned in school and at home, to the relief of all.</p>