<p>Hard Knocks^ They are still looking at income - spending and not saving may not work.</p>
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<p>The kid whose parents are paying full freight are being “penalized” because his/her parents can pay full freight… how, exactly? That strikes me as a darn lucky kid, not one who is penalized at all.</p>
<p>Owlice, not everyone who is told by colleges that they CAN pay full freight is wealthy. As I said, every student is more than his or her AGI. I’m genuinely surprised that that’s even a subject of debate.</p>
<p>I think KM raised many valid points for consideration. Most people agree that there is room for change in the financing of education, so why shouldn’t the topic be discussed from all angles? Why the need to get so ugly (not you, personally, Owlice) when the status quo is challenged?</p>
<p>As a full-pay parent, I held no animosity toward FAs students, until I started reading CC. I have read a tremendous number of threads that convey a shocking level of entitlement when it comes to FA. I do sometimes wonder if there is something lost when students receive a free $200K education without struggle or sacrifice. I read a story in a campus paper stating that FA students want 4 trips home per year rather than the 2 that are currently paid for. I am affronted because we are very frugal with our D’s college expenses and only offer to fly her home once a year at Christmas.</p>
<p>As I stated earlier, I find it puzzling that FA students are not expected to pay back any of their grants, because that could help bring down tuition for everyone.</p>
<p>Knight - Sounds like you have great parents - I bet they are proud of you as mine are of me. I found out too much about my family’s financial needs this year with college applications and fin aid applications. (They have done a great job of never letting me feel like I was lacking in any of my needs - cell phone, no - cable tv, no - spending money, no and you know what none of it mattered,) It kinda fell on me because my dad was in a comma when everything was due. He’s fine now and back to working 70plus hours a week, which does concern me but he’ll have it no other way. Anyways, I just wanted to say you rock! And best wishes right back at you!</p>
<p>zoosermom, and not everyone has to go to an expensive college. There are plenty of colleges in the US; they aren’t all $50K/year. I absolutely agree with you that every student is more than his or her AGI – that’s kind of the point of needs-based aid, to try to help high-achieving kids with a not-very-high AGI have an opportunity to attend an expensive school. </p>
<p>Of course financial aid should be discussed; that’s why we’re all on this forum in the first place – to discuss it! So let’s discuss this:</p>
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<p>Kids who have the stats to get into top-tier schools whose families don’t have money and get needs-based aid… that aid is “rewarding poor performance,” according to sewhappy.</p>
<p>I disagree. </p>
<p>I doubt I’ve changed anyone’s mind!</p>
<p>knightforum-</p>
<p>What an insightful and inspiring point of view!</p>
<p>You’ll go far, no doubt, in whatever you choose to do. The tax dollars that are helping to subsidize your education are being spent well. I can’t say that for a lot of the government spending that’s going on lately. :)</p>
<p>The mission statement of “100% Needs-Met, Need-based-Aid-Only” Universities:</p>
<p>“From each according to his [parent’s financial] ability [to pay, as we calculate it], to each [student] according to his needs!”</p>
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People even with a high AGI may not be wealthy. They may be hardworking, like us. Why should kids in the middle be shut out of the expensive schools? For whom is that a good thing?</p>
<p>Bravo knightforum and Goodschoolhopefully! You deserve all the support that comes your way. Tomorrow, you will be in a position to help others.</p>
<p>I can’t go to my family seder feeling like I have made enemies here. I am glad you are back KM, you have started an important discussion. In the end many of us will still disagree with each other but I believe we are listening to each other and that is important. I am listening to you zoosermom and I truly believe you have given my posts an inflection that was not intended. I am not backing down from my position but I know we are all after the same thing, the best college education we can get. The sun will set soon and dad needs some help with the Passover preparation.</p>
<p>Not that this thread is in danger of running out of fuel, but if you are bored by the arguments here you might wish to visit an equally hot thread on the Parents Forum
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/688821-should-princeton-dd-choice-if-i-want-her-hobnob-snob-kids.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/688821-should-princeton-dd-choice-if-i-want-her-hobnob-snob-kids.html</a></p>
<p>^ trouble maker LOL</p>
<p>In the final analysis, it would seem that the most disadvantaged students of all are the ones from affluent households with parents who are unwilling to pay for his expensive tuition at an elite school. He is clearly the most handicapped of all in obtaining that sort of pedigree.</p>
<p>Someone who comes to this country with nothing but works hard against discrimination may end up among those paying full price because of talent. I get what kentuckymom is saying, in that the example being shown by the FA system is that those who work the hardest are rewarded the least. But hard work does not go unnoticed. Those who work hard and make more money can afford better schools, more comfortable living arrangements, as well as programs that send their kids to all over the country. I do consider myself fortunate for having the opportunity to travel to over 10 different states for national competitions and Scouting events. Not everyone has those opportunities. I remember when I was selected for a national competition along with a few other friends, one of whom could not attend because of his personal financial situation. He did not have the opportunity to attend the competition, which I regarded as an incredible experience. I don’t think it’s fair that his financial situation prohibited him from attending, so likewise, I think that the current FA system (though flawed because there’s a limiting factor: total money in the system) helps those whose financial situation would otherwise prohibit them from attending the school of their choice.</p>
<p>Goodschoolhopefully, how remarkably mature you are. Your parents must be incredibly proud of you. I would be.</p>
<p>This is an interesting thread.</p>
<p>IMO, the anger and bitterness stems from the confiscatory nature of the financial aid system:</p>
<ul>
<li>I forget the exact number, but at somewhere around $80K per year, the FAFSA formulas allocate 47% of every dollar towards your EFC. By the time you factor in taxes, you can wind up netting 10 cents on the dollar from working. If you are self-employed, the net can approach zero. How is this right?</li>
</ul>
<p>$80K is not exactly living high, either.</p>
<ul>
<li><p>the allowances for “income protection” and “2nd job expenses” if both parents work are a joke. They look like they are out of the 70’s. Same with asset allowances.</p></li>
<li><p>they count virtually every penny you have in the bank, except maybe the loose change under the cushions in your sofa. (I’m sure that will be on next year’s form. 
) This is typically day to day living expenses, and maybe a few months’ buffer for emergencies. This is not an asset that can be tapped for college.</p></li>
<li><p>they add back in money contributed to retirement. This is a 47% tax on people who are funding their own retirements (which is most of us). Yet those who are covered by pension plans (these days, typically gov’t workers) are not punished for having a such a plan. How is this fair? And if they decide you’ve saved up too much for retirement, they will add that back to the asset pot.</p></li>
<li><p>if you sell an appreciated asset, you might get hit twice - once for the income, and a second time for the asset value. Nice disincentive to save.</p></li>
<li><p>the private schools treat any equity you have in your house as an open checkbook, regardless of whether you can access it or not.</p></li>
<li><p>the private schools reinterpret your tax returns any way they see fit, adding things back into your income at their whim.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>The result is that a solid dual-income middle class family making $150K is expected to pony up close to half of their after-tax income to pay for college. Their lifestyle has been cut <em>in half</em>; they are living on $55K/year instead of $110K or so, or they or their kids have taken on massive debt.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, the $40K family’s kid gets a free ride. This family’s lifestyle (while granted not that high to begin with) is unaffected.</p>
<p>Of course it causes resentment.</p>
<p>My solutions:</p>
<p>1) It seems to me there is no reason for a kid to <em>ever</em> get a free ride via financial aid. While their parents may never be able to afford anything, the kid now has 40+ working years to pay back loans, with a prestigious degree backing them up. A reasonable level of debt (say, $30K-$40K total) is not crushing, and if it means the kid needs to major in something that will let them get a decently paying, oh well, sacrifices sometimes have to be made.</p>
<p>2) The asset percentages assumed available for college are too high (if you have more than 2 kids not in school at the same time, kiss all your money goodbye), and there should be a cap on the percentage of your income, say 20%. Maybe a slightly sliding scale as your income goes up. This would ease the burden on the middle class, taking private schools from “impossibly expensive without bankrupting ourselves” to “painful, but doable if we make some sacrifices”.</p>
<p>My $0.02. Go ahead, rip me to shreds. :)</p>
<p>I think it is unfair that kids whose parents refuse to involve themselves in the college process are at such a severe disadvantage. A kid can be top drawer and still not be able to go the any of these top schools that want everyone to have a shot at a seat because parents refuse to pay or even fill out the forms.</p>
<p>I just went back and re-read everything I have written on this thread. I never called anyone a “slacker”, I never said anyone didn’t “deserve” aid, nor can I see where I was disrespectful or mean to anyone. I created the opening post to illustrate, from a different perspective, the problems that I see with the current FA model, using salary instead of free tuition as the reward. I challenge those who have been involved in this thread to go back to the beginning and read it again.</p>
<p>It obviously created quite a few sparks. Of course, where one sits on the FA spectrum will color one’s viewpoint. I can’t help but wonder if it is the uncomfortable truth of some of my points that has caused the obvious anger toward me personally.</p>
<p>This system of these elite private colleges offering substantial amounts of need-based aid is fairly new. One can’t help but wonder if the huge increases in tuition, over and above inflation, have had something to do with it. And now they have a dramatically different economy under which to operate. It seems to me that something’s got to change for them to continue in this way. Especially if the middle-to-upper-middle class parents find them unaffordable.</p>
<p>And thanks for the .02, notrichenough. I love your point 1. I agree. All students should have a stake in the process. I won’t “rip you to shreds”, but I can’t speak for others here.</p>
<p>I disagree kymom.</p>
<p>Here is what you said to me:</p>
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</p>
<p>You don’t know me, you have no idea what kind of family I come from or what qualities I possess, yet you instantly attacked me personally and sarcastically and insinuated that I was some sort of lesser being.</p>
<p>I hope some day you find peace in your heart. We are all God’s creatures.</p>