This is my first time using CollegeConfidential but I need unbiased advice so I thought this was the best place to ask:
I’ve always faced a predicament about where to apply early. I’m a junior at a school in Pennsylvania, and our school has a close relationship with the University of Pennsylvania as it accepts at least a fourth of our seniors every year, (with a graduating class of 120). Other Ivy League schools (mainly Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia) and comparable universities (MIT, Stanford, Johns Hopkins) all accept only 1-2 students per class. I’ll offer my stats in a bit but it’s safe to say that if I were to apply early to UPenn, I’m likely to be accepted. However, I’ve always dreamt of attending Harvard, I know it’s stereotypical but I’ve always dreamt bigger than a school ten minutes away from my high school. The resources Harvard offers, its community and academic rigor undeniably have UPenn beat. Applying early to Harvard however, especially since I’m not exactly ranked first in my class has always scared me as it seems like I’m wasting an opportunity of UPenn acceptance in December, or at all for that matter. Due to UPenn’s Early Decision policy, if I apply early to UPenn and I’m accepted, my Harvard dreams are also done for. I want to apply early to Harvard and take advantage of its larger acceptance rate (yes I acknowledge the applicant pool is smaller and more competitive) but I don’t want to waste an opportunity at UPenn.
Here are my stats:
SAT: 1560 (Superscore)
SAT2s: 800 Math 2, 800 Biology, 720 Physics
GPA: Unweighted: 3.95, Weighted: 4.15 (Bs in Precalculus Honors and AP AB Calculus)
AP Courseload (Only offered Junior and Senior Year): Junior Year: AP United States History, AP Language and Composition, AP AB Calculus. Senior Year: AP US Government, AP Spanish, AP Physics C, AP Statistics (Only possible to take 7 total, the average is 3-5)
Extracurriculars: Varsity Philadelphia City Rowing Team (Novice Captain, 4 years), Varsity Debate Team (4 years), World Affairs (4 years), Math Club (4 years), Artificial Intelligence Club (Co-Founder, 3 years), Robotics Programming (Safety Captian, 2 years), Peer Counseling (2 years), Spanish NHS (2 years), NHS (1 year),
UPenn Extracurriculars: Young Scholars Program (Studied UPenn College Courses: Statistics A, Microeconomics A-), Access Engineering (Saturday Engineering Course- 2 years)
Summer Programs: Freshman Year: Volunteered at a local library (45 hours) and completed charity work at my local mosque (60 hours), Sophomore Year: Drexel ASM International Materials Camp (1 week), UPenn Experimental Physics Research Academy (3 weeks), Junior Year: Temple Fox Chase Immersion Essentials (1 week), UPenn Biomedical Research Academy (3 weeks)
Rank: My high school doesn’t publicly rank but my counselor confirmed that I am in the top 5-10% of my class.
Sibling’s College: Johns Hopkins (Class of 2023)
Intended major: Biology (Pre-med track)
Race: African American
Hopefully, with all that in mind, some of you could advise me on my chances at Harvard. I’m not trying to come off as arrogant or ungrateful and I do acknowledge how great UPenn is- I would just like to know my own worth and I would like to take advantage of Harvard’s elite Biology program, their resources, and community. If you’d take a look at my stats, I already have a UPenn undergraduate account, a 3.85 transcript, and a two-three year history, so I’d like to believe that I have it’s likely that I’m a member of the fourth of my class that’s bound to be accepted. Applying early has its risks and advantages but I want to know if I have a chance at Harvard at all before potentially losing a spot at UPenn. I have safety and other target schools ready, but other dream schools besides Harvard that come to mind are Princeton, MIT, Yale and Stanford, all because of their Biology programs, resources, and financial aid coverage- If you think I’d be able to apply early to those schools and have a higher chance at acceptance at those than Harvard, please let me know.
Sorry, bad word choice with “worth” there, I meant that by questioning how far my stats, work, and overall effort could get me.
As for how many students fare from Regular Decision- an equal amount, if 30 are accepted total, I’d say 15 from early decision and 15 from regular, but keep in mind, nearly the entire school who isn’t accepted to an early binding school applies to Penn in the regular round so it’s more competitive.
I would like to reap the benefits of the early round not just for acceptance but also to be finished early with the college process, so I wouldn’t want to just apply to Harvard early without having at least a decent chance.
With a great essay that reveals who you are and what makes you tick, superb recommendations from not only two teachers but your guidance counselor, and a great narrative of what type of student you will be on campus, you have a better than average chance (as stated above). Your dilemma requires some soul searching…if you get into UPenn ED, will you regret not having applied SCEA to Harvard? Do you have solid safety schools that you would be proud to attend should SCEA not work out and UPenn RD hits a road block?
“The resources Harvard offers, its community and academic rigor undeniably have UPenn beat.” I wonder if you could defend this statement.
B grades in precalc and AB? AP stats senior year, not BC? You want a stem major? AP bio or chem? Comm service other than NHS? In healthcare delivery?
You don’t get into an elite for dreaming. Nor is this just about a narrative. You have a decent chance but it will hang on your full app pkg and doing that well needs some understanding of what THEY look for, not just what you want.
Decide which in early October. Starting right now, try to learn what match is.
Beyond that, without knowing other courses, we have no idea of your prep. And if your rigor is properly balanced.
From what I can tell (somebody please correct me if I’m wrong), the role of early decision varies from college to college. At places that routinely have exceptionally high yields (e.g., Harvard, Stanford, Notre Dame), and are a lot of people’s first choice, ED is where colleges accept athletes & others who are so exceptional accademically that they would be certain admits in the RD round. For these schools, ED is NOT where one gets a little bump due to the college trying to RAISE its yield by sealing the deal with students who are “qualified” but not exceptional.
At other colleges, which might be elite & hard to get into, but are not as often applicants’ first choice (think Northwestern, maybe Tufts & Cornell?), this is where the colleges might accept “qualified” students who will do fine academically, & who might get that little bump you keep hearing about as a sort of reward for making them their #1 choice.
From what I can tell, a merely excellent student who is hoping that applying ED will give them that little boost they need to get in an elite school, applying ED to the first type of school is a waste, & would be better used at the second type.
lookingforward, I’m struggling with the point you’re trying to make- I should adjust my major from STEM to humanities because of my Bs in Precalc and AB? (I cannot take BC in senior year, the student places for either AB or BC).
Sigh. Now the argument is that the RD round has more competitive applicants in it, after all the arguments I’ve been hearing as to why Early is more competitive because the athletes, hooked and on the ball kids are all applying them.
Penn makes it clear that they give a break in ED. That’s when legacies get a bit of a break. They can get get a good hold of their yield with ED. Being binding, it’s very effective.
No, you should not be adjusting your major from STEM to humanities because of your calculus. You should know that as a pure academic admit, you are not on the top of the heap because you are placed into BC calc as a lot of such candidates are, and your grades are not too-top in the area you want. Math is the foundation of STEM courses.
No way for us to judge your research, work or courses at Penn. Are those true college courses, dual enrollment for which you will be getting college credit? Perhaps the Harvard AO will know about the program. A lot of these highschool programs held on college grounds with college staff have no impact on admission to colleges. They are supplemental courses to broaden and enrich the high school curriculum, not move it up to s different level. If Penn gives favor to those in such courses, plus with some consideration given due to the school you attend , if those favors are not just in the ED , might as well get the SCEA edge for Harvard. Ask your GC about that. Penn seems to be upfront about saying who benefits a bit from ED that loses that bump RD.
Consider that many of the 6,958 who applied SCEA had similar stats & ECs to you …
Divide the 935 accepted in half - 51% female. Subtract athletes, legacies, etc. admitted
early – and you’ll see how few seats there are. Even so, if it’s long been your dream and
if you’ll regret not chasing it - go for it.
Do talk to your GC re: stats on your high school’s success at Penn ED vs. RD. See what the difference is. If you go for Harvard, you may be reducing your odds in the RD round simply because Penn will have filled half the class already. Really, your call.
You have high test scores and a URM hook. My concern is the same as others here about whether your grades and rigor would be sufficient at an elite STEM department. You have done many summer programs, and that’s great . However, they do not look like ones that focus on some in depth research.
Have you looked into top tier LAC’s , like Swarthmore? Perhaps you are more likely to get academic support at such places as an undergrad in STEM. If med school is your ultimate goal, you need to have pretty good grades as an undegrad.
Apply EA to Harvard or you will always be plagued by the “what if” question. At the same time, apply rolling admissions to some top tier state flagships, especially if they have well respected honors programs and are affordable. I think most people who get into Penn ED would have had a pretty good chance to get in RD. The converse of so many spots taken in the ED/EA round by athletes and legacies is that there will much fewer of those to compete with (probably almost no athletes) in the RD round.
I happen to think your chance for Harvard is higher than average, being URM with great academics. Go for your dream, but have safeties in place. It does seem like that U Penn is a locked in.
One word of caution, for premed, you will need to take cal 2 and stat in college. Cal 2 is a major weed out, for engineering and other students in college. Are you ok with that? But you do have the same problem at both schools. Maybe you can take cal 2 in local school during a summer and move to cal 3 in college.
Calculus: It seems that my grades in Precalc and AB Calc are concerns. I would like to reaffirm that I am a STEM-Oriented student and that those Bs in calculus were not due to the course themselves, as I tested well in Math2 and the AB Calc Exam, but because of a single ridiculously rigorous professor. I know AO’s won’t have that explanation but for those reading, know that I’m not intimidated by challenging STEM courses or a STEM major/pre-med.
UPenn Courses & Research: The classes I’ve taken at UPenn are dual enrollment, yes, but for college credit, with a transcript that is mandatorily sent to UPenn in my application, so it is actually taken into consideration.
Summer Programs: It also seems that my coursework during the summer isn’t as demanding as it should be, particularly from a research standpoint. Though I’m planning on taking a Biomed academy at UPenn, I have three other options available: a 4-week math course at Princeton (perhaps this could reaffirm my strength and interest in mathematics despite my grades in calculus), a 6-week research focused forensics Program at a local Forensics Institute (worried that the time spent would take away from my time preparing for college essays, and that forensics would veer away from my intended Biology major), or a 4 week research and experimental program at Jefferson Hospital. If any of these stand out better than my current choice, please let me know.
Overall: The general consensus is that I have a slightly higher than average chance that is still infinitesimally small but should take that chance regardless because ED and RD differences aren’t apparent within UPenn and because I have a much higher chance there.
Uh-oh, the old professor excuse. Sorta jk. But CC doesn’t tend to accept that excuse.
When adcoms look at the transcript theyll know you want stem and have B grades in two stem courses, one a critical AP. And you’ll only have AB calc, not BC. No you don’t change your major. Instead, you realistically assess your match. That’s more than loading up on summer programs and various resesrch.
What’s your experience in the healthcare setting? Did you take AP bio and chem? Did your 'comm service assist the needy or you just did something at the mosque? Confusing picture.
Your questions and explanations hint you haven’t really tested your match to what these tippy tops look for. That exploration should be #1.
Your slightly better shot is based on stats and being active. It ends there. You have some tuning to do.
@harvarddream88 I agree your Math2 and SAT scores are tops. You mentioned that your lower grades in math were due to a "ridiculously rigorous " instructor. At most top universities, expect many STEM profs to be even more rigorous, some unreasonably so, but that’s how it is.
As someone else suggested, try to take Calc 2 somewhere, maybe online through edx. It will help you in college. I dont know enough about the summer programs you listed to give any advice about them. Have you taken AP bio or Ap chem?
Is your sibling at Hopkins in a STEM major? If so, you may already be familiar with the level of rigor. I would also strongly suggest that you post in Harvard forum and see if you can get some idea about the bio major at H. I tend to agree with @lookingforward about seeking out what H wants in their STEM majors, not what you want.
Agree with @lookingforward and @momprof9904. Wait until you are in college and in a math class where the professor’s first language is not English, this is his first year teaching and per syllabus, the average GPA of the class should be between 2.6 and 3.1.
@momprof9904@lookingforward Unfortunately, I am enrolled in AP Physics and my school only allows for a limited number of APs- only one science AP can be taken but biology, chemistry, and physics honors were all taken. I have been attempting to switch out of Physics for Chem or Bio for the past few months and it’s an ongoing discussion with administration. My grades in all three honors courses were more or less the same (A+) so due to spacial constraints, I was placed into AP Physics.
As for the advice on looking into experience in a healthcare setting, I will be taking that into serious consideration and recently looked into volunteering at a hospital. The volunteer work I did at the mosque did, in fact, help the needy directly as most of my volunteer work does.
For the advice on calculus, I’m now looking into online courses and those dual enrollment courses at UPenn and will try to master those before college. What both of you are saying regarding looking into Harvard’s requirements on STEM is important, and perhaps my Bs in calculus will be a serious impediment. I’ll take that into consideration in this decision.
If you weren’t URM with high test scores and some magnet or prep school, I would strongly recommend ED at UPenn but you do have a shot at Harvard.
IMHO decision depends upon your financial situation. If you are low income, Harvard may favor you and their aid is better too. If you are affluent and cost isn’t a big issue than go with UPenn.
I would personally advise my kids to go for UPenn, but, if you want to take more of a risk for your dream then apply early to Harvard. The downside is you may not get into either, so just have solid back up schools.