Harvard Extension School

MikeBFunk · September 30, 2009, 4:34pm

Hey Everyone! I have q question I need some help with. I have the chance to do my undergrad at either Arizona State University or Harvard Extension School. I am 26, money is not a huge issue and I am looking for the best education I can get. Daytime or night time does not matter to me. I have already taken classes at HES and loved it. That being said, I would like to go to law school. So if given the chance which school would be better to get my undergrad in and which one, grades and LSAT score permitting, would give me the best chance to get into a top tier law school?

AmaraWhite · October 24, 2009, 5:31pm

@ MikeBFunk: If you know what your top choice law schools are, find out who their feeder schools are. That’s the best way to make a decision if money isn’t a huge issue and you’re looking for the best education you can get.

If it’s between those two schools, I would choose Harvard.

SFSUGator · November 24, 2009, 10:43am

I’m not going to comment on how people perceive certain Ivy League degrees… mostly, because I don’t know much on the topic and I don’t want to look like a dumb-a$$.

But, I will say this.

I think, due to the economy and pure convenience of online classes, that the “traditional” student is slowly becoming a thing of memory.

When I was in junior college (community college, two year college…w/e), getting my butt out of bed at the crack of dawn just didn’t appeal to me so I took mostly online courses. I did great, I got two AA Degrees and transferred to San Francisco State University.

San Francisco State is a commuter school and therefore, highly traditional. I couldn’t stand it! (Budget cuts suck right now in California, so courses I was left to choose from did not appeal to me at all) I left the school and enrolled in UMass Lowell, Continuation School. The program I am enrolled in is entirely online and I LOVE it.

Counselors believe I enrolled in a University of Phoenix but no, its a “REAL” school. And while, I may never step foot on campus, minus for graduation, I can work and not worry about “getting to class on time” I save on parking permits and gas. And, I’m getting a way better education than SFSU could EVER hope to offer.

So, while people may be getting their panties in a bunch over the legitimacy over the HES degree, the jokes on them actually, because chances are, those poor suckers are on the 7 year plan and still in school try to complete courses and juggle work etc.

“legitmate” or not, the schools of non-traditional students are the future.

:) My two cents!

sakky · November 27, 2009, 6:32am

What moral ambiguity? A HES degree is a degree from Harvard. Simple as that.

What I love are other people’s constant rationalizations for why a HES degree is not a ‘real’ Harvard degree when ever Harvard itself says that it is.

siserune · December 2, 2009, 8:26am

A fun test case for sakky’s ethical analyses is below. Sakky raised the interesting matter of CMU professor (and HES alumna) Latanya Sweeney’s resume, trying to leverage Sweeney’s professor status as a proof that no lying could have occurred despite the lack of overt reference to the Extension school. However, on inspection, her CV doesn’t just contain the common and familiar form of HES resume falsification (she claims a “[Harvard University] ALB in Computer Science”, a degree that doesn’t exist and which is inconsistent with HES rules on citation of its degrees in resumes). Prof. Sweeney tries so hard to avoid any use of the words “Harvard Extension” or “Extension Studies” that she makes a more spectacularly dishonest claim: to have been a *Harvard University graduation speaker<a href=“i.e.,%20a%20speaker%20before%20the%20audience%20of%20thousands%20at%20the%20University-wide%20ceremonies%20in%20Harvard%20Yard”>/i</a>. It would be good to see sakky’s response in the thread where he raised the question:

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/454497-would-harvard-extension-school-degree-hold-same-weight-harvard-degree-12.html#post1063364762[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/454497-would-harvard-extension-school-degree-hold-same-weight-harvard-degree-12.html#post1063364762</a>

chappy3 · December 21, 2009, 2:51am

It’s unfortunate that this thread ended–it was so spirited. That’s a plus for any student body, whether it be UPenn, Harvard, or a community college that’s unheard of. The bummer here: too many personal attacks. First, personal attacks are weak and fallacious. Attacking someone’s character to defend your argument isn’t just annoying in a casual sense, it shows a lack of logical chops and debases your argument to the public your attempting to convince. So let’s all try this again.

I’ve just begun studies at the Extension School. I’ve taken Heroes and Anti-Heroes in Greek Civilization–amazing course, by the way–and Neurobiology, which was also a great course. Now, I had reservations about the Harvard Extension experience, myself. “How,” I thought, “could a school with such a reputation hand away its name so flippantly?” It didn’t make sense that such a high-caliber education could be open enrollment. Then I took the courses.

Those classes were hard. One of my professors (in the Greek course), was once the president of the American Philology Association, once the Chair of the Classics program of Harvard College, and preliminary scholar on the Greeks, stacked with piles of alcolades decorating his name. His teaching assistant was also a PhD with extensive knowledge and genuine love for what he was teaching. It showed. I learned a great deal about humanity from that course, and I learned a great dela about myself.

The Neurobiology course was astonishingly difficult and equally interesting. My professor had an MD and PhD. He was brilliant and articulate. With 165 students in the class, most of which were adding some prestige to their med school applications, I had plenty of competition. I’m still waiting for grades to make their way back, but I’m sure I did fine.

My point here is to show that HES has something special working for it. Moreover, it was challenging, which is the reason I decided to attend. I wasn’t looking for a paper degree, I’m looking for something life changing, which is really what education ought to revolve about. Arguing about the differences between one school and the next is only partly helpful. Surely we can make a distinction between a school like ITT Tech and Harvard College, but not very meaningfully. The two programs are largely different, and they cater to a different student body.

Looking at a couple threads here I’ve seen a part-to-whole fallacy that’s a little aggrivating:

Some students misrepresent themselves on their resumes…What’s your point? Some people are sent to military prisons for mis-conduct while serving in the military. Is the military a crap institution because of those individuals?

HES is an amazing institution. If you’re looking for a great study opportunity, the I recommend it. Education for its own sake is an awesome experience.

melin720 · December 21, 2009, 10:37am

Harvard College is still 500 times harder to get into than Harvard Extension School.

So I would give more credit to those who are in Harvard College.

People in HES can justify their backdooring all they want but no matter what I’d rather shake the hands of a person who worked his ass off and made it through the super selective admissions process of HC than at HES where anybody can just get in by passing a few classes. And you really think people at HC can’t pass those few classes of HES test?

fortycal · December 21, 2009, 3:00pm

I found this thread whilst searching for information on HES. I went to BU, but I’m looking to take my education in another direction entirely after some 10-odd years.

Really, I think the whole debate, while making for entertaining reading, is moot because HC and HES cater to wholly different demographics. How many well-qualified adults would/does HC actually admit into its Bachelor’s programs? I don’t know, but my gut feeling is that these programs cater almost entirely to kids. And how many adults want to hang out with a bunch of kids. The idea is Ridiculous.

But I can’t resist throwing a couple cents into this stream of consciousness. The practical question is not, “What is the selectivity of the admissions process?” but rather, “what is the quality of the degree?” That is, having passed thru the program and graduated, has one accomplished a work that is worthy, without qualification, of the Harvard name?

The anecdotes related by HES attendees and graduates on this thread concerning the difficulty and quality of the coursework would seem to indicate that it is of Harvard quality. Ideally, someone would offer an apples-to-apples syllabus comparison in a given subject, replete with prof. qualifications for each corresponding course, but I see no reason to discount the positive information presented thus far.

In my opinion, Boston is full of over-educated, presumptuous useful idiots that couldn’t think their way out of a paper bag. I see on this thread a great deal of condescending irrelevancy masquerading as reasonable logic. Comments like siserune’s and melin720’s are in the usual pattern: a thin veneer of pompous discernment that is intended to bully others into accepting their deeply ingrained elitist entitlement for belonging (or pretending to belong) to some nepotistic club or other.

Frankly, siserune’s is not a club I would join even if he/she were, to paraphrase Monty Python, to get down on his/her lousy stinking knees and beg me.

I note, in closing, that suserune seems unwilling to disclose his/her own qualifications, despite being asked some time ago. Until otherwise informed, I shall assume Bunker Hill Community College.

Bullneck · January 9, 2010, 9:44am

Siserune, I think you might be too smart for this forum. Why don’t you tell us a little about your academic and professional background?

brandon_ruse · January 9, 2010, 10:47am

This thread has been something I’ve commented on a lot as time has went on. I think that it’s challenging to complete this program and to be honest, none of the posters on here(aside from those who have actually attended HES), are able to comment on that difficulty and thus are really uninformed. I’m about to graduate with my Bachelor of Liberal Arts from the Extension School. Whether that makes me Harvard material or not, who’s to say? I’ll be a part of the Alumni Association, I’m a member of the Harvard Club of Boston with all the priviledges associated with it, and I’m sure I’ll be staying on for my masters degree.

<pre><code>Anyone who wants can go ahead and try and compare us to those who are in HC but, really, the majority of us don’t claim to be from Harvard College. Also, I don’t believe those of us who are alumni would even claim such a thing or even disagree that the young adults, in most cases, worked very hard to attain their education at the College. Who says that solely passing the process of selectivity into an extremely prestigious college makes one great? The University is made up of fourteen different Schools which all cater, mostly, to different crowds. I’ve been taught courses by PhD’s, MD’s, and AM’s from the Ed School, College, and Medical School. Does this make me intelligent or any better than anyone else? No, the fact of the matter is it’s about WHAT you do with your education and the tools you make use of. I can sit in front of a group of people all day long with a Harvard degree but if I don’t have certain skills such as knowing how to deal with people, contextual knowledge, and critical thinking I’ll just be lost. The point I’m trying to say here is that in the end I will have a Harvard University degree which is granted by the President of our University. This, despite many peoples’ rational objections, is the reality. It is what I do with that knowledge that really counts. Not the frills, the name dropping, etc. It’s about applying the simple skills that you learn such as: presenting your ideas, critical thinking, and broad liberal understanding and synthesis of material. I’m proud of the hard work I’ve done and the hard work of those who have worked night after night and most people don’t have the guts to do this type of work.
</code></pre>

Come to me when you’ve got an Harvard degree and then you can judge the education we have and even then, it’s just subjective opinion. I’ll gladly have a point by point discussion of the merits and drawbacks of the education I’m getting and the usefulness of the degree. By this time next year, I’ll be a member of Harvard’s alumni association and well, my journey towards my masters in psychology will be beginning. It’s not about where you go, it’s really about the application of the knowledge you receive. If any prospective HES students would like some information, you can contact me via PM.

Redark · January 26, 2010, 5:31pm

I’m amazed at the prejudice and bias displayed in this thread. Before I proceed, let me tell you that I’m an extension student.

However, I would consider myself having “passed” the rigor of the admission process at top schools. I have an undergraduate engineering degree and a master of science degree from top schools (both of which are ranked in the top 5). I’ve enough patents and publications to my name to make people cry. To top it all, I work at a leading management consulting firm making oodles of money and interacting with C-level executives.

And I go to Harvard Extension School. Why? Because I can study a subject area that I love without having to go through the difficulties of being enrolled in a traditional college. Because I can take course loads at my leisure while having an extremely busy schedule. And because despite the idiocy displayed in this thread, I still get to take classes under world class professors at a fraction of the typical price.

Am I going to market myself as a “Harvard” candidate? That’s a silly question, because I am a Harvard student, and if even stating that is considered marketing, it is quite ridiculous. After all, extension school is part of Harvard University. And I have never hidden the fact that I go to extension school.

The comments here demonstrate an irrational bias that is quite unfounded – and honestly – are quite offensive.

fauve · January 26, 2010, 5:52pm

The reality is that HES is for adult learners like yourself, and does not have anywhere near the competition for admissions, and thereby the exclusivity (numerical) of Harvard College.

Just because Harvard University placates HES students with assurances of being real Harvard, does not change the fact that the world views HES as an extension program. It’s just business.

If you choose to call yourself a “Harvard” candidate, or student, and are not forth-coming about the Extension moniker, that is your individual choice of misleading self-promotion. But don’t expect the rest of the informed-world to respect or accept your self-deception.

Redark · January 27, 2010, 12:46am

Ease of admissions does not translate into ease of earning a degree. You could argue that one relates to the other, but that would be a fallacy because only a very, very small percentage (3% for ALM, I believe) of those who register graduate. By that stretch, anyone can take a class, but few join the degree program and fewer still graduate.

Now don’t get me wrong. HES does NOT relate to HC in any way whatsoever. However, that does not necessarily mean that HES is an easy experience, either.

And that’s fine. Because that’s the world’s problem, not mine. :-)

As far as I’m concerned, I get to study a subject I love at my pace under world class professors at a fraction of the price. And if I ever choose to go back to do a PhD, I’ll have publications, coursework, references, and (hopefully) a degree in the subject to back me up.

Re: the business comment – Even if you assume that there are 10,000 students enrolled at Harvard Extension School, paying $5,000/year, Harvard only makes 50 million/year. That is nowhere even near the total endowment that they have or the total amount that they make. (And I know the real numbers, since I’ve friends who work for managing their endowment.)

Given how militant they are about their brand, I’d think that the damage to their brand costs them more than the $50 million change.

This is the part that baffles me. Agreed, I’ve never felt the need to drop the extension moniker – however, saying that I go to Harvard would not be a lie, either. I’ve friends who go to Georgetown continuing studies program – nobody seems to raise a stink when they say they go to Georgetown. So why the militancy (or hypocrisy) when it comes to Harvard? In fact, it goes beyond mere militancy – folks get downright hostile whenever this topic comes up.

redlinekid2 · February 5, 2010, 3:00am

Redark,
I agree with your comments. There are those who can’t understand the unique opportunity that HES provides. Also, some are not even aware that the school’s open enrollment is really a provisional status for those who want to experience the richness of the school’s academic ciriculum. The open enrollment policy is an option that is not given at Columbia GS or UPenn’s LPS. At least, HES gives a prospective student a chance to see if he’s capable of handling the academic rigors that the school is known for.

And about the few who actually go into the ALB or ALM program, I think that the numbers are very small because a lot of students only attends HES for certain classes that holds their interests. Most are from other colleges or universities. Thus, the admission’s process into the ALB or ALM is self selecting. Even if they are degree candidates, very few finish the program because their academic interests might have changed. So they might end up transfering to other schools. The people who actually finish the ALB or the ALM degree program are those who love the HES experience and make it their own. These are the students who are there because of the academics and the opportunities that HES provides.

Therefore, if someone wants to go to HES because he thinks that the experience will be an easy one will wind up very disappointed. HES is not known for low academic standards. It’s not just the name that would hold my interest. It’s the challenging academics that draws my attention.

nauru · April 2, 2010, 4:45pm

Interesting discussion. I was not aware that certain people attach a stigma to qualifications from Harvard’s extension school.

I have never attended Harvard University or any of its divisions, schools, colleges, departments, or other miscellaneous subgroups.

But this piece of writing from the Harvard administration itself is tough to ignore.

[Ask</a> a Question: Harvard Extension School](<a href=“http://harvard.intelliresponse.com/extension/?requestType=NormalRequest&source=4&id=2022&question=Is+it+really+Harvard]Ask”>http://harvard.intelliresponse.com/extension/?requestType=NormalRequest&source=4&id=2022&question=Is+it+really+Harvard)

In bold: “Extension School graduates are Harvard University alumni.”

In order to become alumni students must first study at the institution in question. So students at Harvard Extension School are in fact students at Harvard University.

The official name of the institution is Harvard University so it would be expected that people who studied here would write Harvard University on their resume. It would also be expected that students would accurately write the coursework they completed or the degree that they earned. Not all degrees from the same institution are viewed, generally speaking, as equal (physics compared to sociology, medicine compared to political science, etc). This is true at virtually all universities, including Harvard. The fact remains that the coursework and/or qualifications are offered by and through Harvard University, so students and graduates have every right to mention or emphasize that their coursework and/or qualifications are from Harvard University.

There are lots of leading universities that offer programs, certificates and non-degree studies; University of Oxford, University of Cambridge, Stanford University, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, University of Toronto, and many others. They are not offered by Oxford University with asterisk, Stanford University with disclaimer, or MIT with a notice to see conditions. People are aware of the fact that not all qualifications from each of these institutions are of equal rigor. Some colleges at Oxford are vastly easier to get into than others. The same is true of the University of Toronto (I don’t have personal knowledge of all the others but you get the point). Regardless, everyone who completes coursework or receives a qualification from the University of Toronto can legitimately mention or emphasize that they completed the coursework or qualifications that they completed at the University of Toronto.

Nuclear engineering graduates from the University of Toronto may not like the fact that someone can complete a degree in American studies (far less competitive admission standards, and arguably less rigorous material) and receive a University of Toronto degree bearing the same ‘University of Toronto’ name, coat of arms and president’s signature as appears on a nuclear engineering degree. Mind you, the degrees are distinct – one is M.Eng, the other is M.A. – but they are both University of Toronto degrees. The M.A. graduate has every right to mention or emphasize that he has an M.A. from the University of Toronto, regardless of admission standards or academic rigor relative to other programs offered by the University. He is not morally obliged to draw attention to the possibility that his program may be less rigorous or less selective than others at the University of Toronto. If the administration of the University of Toronto believed that the M.A. being offered was not of sufficient quality to bear the University of Toronto name, the program would have been modified, eliminated, or not offered in the first place.

Admissions selectivity and academic rigor are generally not homogeneous within universities, and probably never will be. It is common knowledge that this is the case at universities around the world, and I don’t see any reason to view Harvard University as an exception.

redlinekid2 · April 20, 2010, 4:27am

Ain’t that the truth!!!

mrmirv · August 1, 2010, 8:34am

I wish this forum was updated with new information.

I myself am strongly considering going to HES to get a masters in international relations. I will be finishing a dual major in history and political science. I want to go on and get my PhD. I want to go to a top school to do this. I have a good gpa 3.6 range, however, I started and stopped my education twice over ten years. I want to get into a program to showcase my skill, and why not do it at Harvard. It is not Harvard College, I get that. It is however, a school where if you prove yourself, you get a world class education with HARVARD faculty. So if the classes are at Harvard, its Harvard faculty (in order to get your degree, you must take 70% of your classes with Harvard faculty), its close enough for me. For the nontraditional student who has a bachelors already, who wants to move forward, its the perfect idea.

mrmirv · August 5, 2010, 11:52am

Well Well,

I have to say I was impressed with the people I talked to. I am not going to write names but I have an informed source shall we say.

The issue is…I was looking at HES for a Masters in IR. Being someone with good grades (3.6) gpa…i wanted something to complement my BA so when I apply to a PHD program in IR, I would look a little more complete. I have started and stopped school several times and I am 31, so I wanted a masters to make myself look as committed as possible.

For me HES is not going to be a good fit. In order to get in, you have to get into 3 classes, pass them with a B-, then apply to get in. The 1st class you have to take is a pro-seminar, aka Writing 101. Not appealing, its basically to weed you out if you can’t do the work. Then you have to get into the classes which are in massive demand. So if you do not have the money for the three classes right there on a credit card when you register, you are not getting in. Its 1900 a class x 3 classes its about 6k upfront. Also, no guarantee to get into the classes and you have about 1 hour to get in or you are waiting until next semester.

Also, the IR program at HES is administered by a History phd. Not cool. Thesis you must do is basically a huge paper with no formal structure. You do not defend the thesis. You submit drafts to a pre picked instructor from Harvard. You do not have a lot of say on who this person is.

Also, classes are very specialized but few and far between and all at night. No day classes to speak of.

I was hoping this would be a good fit for me but it is not. Just reporting on what I found, maybe other majors will be better for others.

undertheradar · August 31, 2010, 12:25am

While everyone would love to get into Harvard (and take advantage of the world class education it has to offer) via the traditional route, not everyone can. There are a multitude of reasons why people decide to obtain their degree through the Extension School at Harvard. Several decades ago, most of the classes were comprised of older students - many who, for a variety of reasons, were unable to attend college or finish degrees at the traditional age established by society. More recently, this wonderful program is no longer a well-kept secret. Traditional-aged students from around the country, and often the world, come to Cambridge to study under some of the many well-published, world-renowned professors. Often, it is because these students might not get into Harvard via the traditional route. At times, it is because families are finding it increasingly difficult in these economic times to finance their children’s educations at elite institutions which do not offer scholarships.

As someone who has been involved with private education at various levels, I have seen how the college process works. Harvard could fill a class with students whose SAT scores totaled 1600. What a boring school that would be. What happens at Harvard, and many other elitist schools is that students get in for a variety of reasons - and not always because they are the brightest students to be found. The football, basketball, rowing, hockey, baseball, softball, etc. etc. etc. teams get a delegated amount of recruits in. Then, you have the musical and theatre programs to consider. Legacy’s and those whose family’s have donated significant amounts of money to the school are also taken into consideration. High profile students (those whose parents are in the entertainment industry or in high political office) are almost guaranteed admission if they, as well as those groups mentioned above, meet the “basic” criteria that was formulated back in the 70’s? (combining SAT scores, GPA, rank in class and a few other things). Some even get in because they know someone who knows someone. Believe me, Harvard is an incredible institution, but, I wish some people would get off of their high horses and realize that many of the students who get into Harvard the traditional way are no more qualified (and may be less qualified) than those who get in through the Extension School. It would be useful for those who question the validity of the Extension School degree to speak with some of the professors who teach at both the College (and some of the grad schools), as well as the Extension School. I think people would be surprised to find out that many of these professors find the students at the Extension School to be extremely intelligent, along with being much more motivated and driven than some of the students they teach during the day.

The Extension School is part of Harvard University. One could argue that getting into the Graduate School of Education or the Divinity School is much easier than getting into Harvard Medical School or Harvard Law School, yet, the Divinity School and the School of Education are just as much a part of Harvard as the Law School and Medical School. How one views any of the schools at Harvard is purely a matter of perspective (and at time is based solely on speculation and not accurate information).

As a student at the Extension School, I find myself, when questioned as to what I do, saying that I am finishing up a degree. If people ask where, I usually say Harvard. If I have the time, I tell them about the Extension School - if not, I just leave it at Harvard. I am clearly not a traditional-aged student. I am not trying to misrepresent myself. I am commuting into Cambridge and studying in the Harvard libraries. I have taken most of my courses with some phenomenal Harvard professors who use the same syllabi for both their day and evening courses. The courses are in the same classrooms that are used for Harvard College students. As I mentioned previously, I have been involved with private education for many years and I can honestly say that I have met some of the most interesting and intelligent people I have ever met in my life while studying at the Extension School (or HSE…whatever). I will forever be grateful to Harvard University for allowing non-traditional students to take full advantage of the marvelous facilities and the extraordinary professors it has to offer.

undertheradar · September 1, 2010, 1:32am

siserune - I have taken courses at the CGS (College of General Studies) at the University of Pennsylvania (not Penn State) in the past. The courses I took were from professors who taught the same exact courses during the day. Unless things have changed in recent years, I believe that CGS and HES are quite similar.

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