Harvard Parent Thread

<p>Even if she wanted to pursue the highest paid job possible upon graduating with her bachelors degree from Harvard, it is very tough to figure out exactly what that is these days. Don’t most Harvard grads go on to post-grad programs? There is wall street but that is not what it used to be and I think many of the students understand that quality of life on wall street is not for everyone. Our son is an economics concentrator because he really enjoys the discipline but he does not intend to work in finance. He has a very hard time narrowing down choices. At this point it will be PhD in economics, law school, med school or trying to make money with his band. To be truthful, sometimes I think the best bet is to pursue the band.</p>

<p>The good thing, Ronsard, is that she has found a field already that has her excited. At this point, declaring the concentration is a long ways off. Give her time to enjoy being a scholar in exploratory mode. Nothing wrong with that. Always makes me a little nervous when an 18 or 19-year-old has their direction in life all figured out.</p>

<p>Treeta:</p>

<p>The best laid plans…
What is a hot field one year may be stone cold four years later. And what seemed useless one time can be very hot later. My H has gone through both. When he got his Ph.D., there were thousands also getting their Ph.D.s in the same field. His subfield was not seen as immediately applicable. 20 years later, it became a really hot field. By then, of course, he’d moved out of that field and out of academia (and has had several career switches).</p>

<p>The deans are leery of having to deal with students who feel pressured by their parents to go into a particular field no matter where their own inclinations or talents lie. This is particularly pronounced among children of immigrants who are unfamiliar with the array of possible professions one could go into and demand that their children go into medicine, law, computer science or nanotechnology. My own parents pressured me to study medicine but I managed to convince them that I had zero aptitude for it. </p>

<p>Of course, parents should advise their children and discuss possible careers; but they should also take into account their children’s dispositions and bear in mind that there is no longer a “safe” career path.</p>

<p>It seems that for now, the issue of changing concentrations is abaited. She thought she had done poorly on her midterm when she in fact did not. She thought engineering was not for her and wanted something different. I really have no problem with her changing concentrations as long as the concentration she chosses will allow her to make a living when she is done. We do not have a limitless amount of money to support her for the rest of her life. We know two Harvard grads, one who concentrated in medievil studies and the other in french who are now employed at Barnes and Noble making minimum wage. I hate to say it but I do not want to make an investment of over $200K to attend H, and end up having her work for minimum wage. It may sound selfish but really it is just what is practical. I beg to differ- there are many “safe” career paths: accounting, engineering, healthcare, argriculture (entomology etc.) and many others. There are concrete statistics which one can find which give the projections for employment for many fields of study. Yes, one can go to grad school and many will but that takes more money and at some point one has to decide when the amount of money put into an education is no longer justified by the projected income one will recieve after graduation.</p>

<p>Treeta:
You do realize that preparation for the careeers you listed is not available at Harvard, except for engineering, and Harvard is not the best place to go for that? For healthcare, perhaps you mean being a physician; medical schools admit students with all sorts of backgrounds, including English or medieval studies. Nursing, however, can be studied for at Middlesex Community College whose admission statistics rival those of Harvard. For accounting, one can go to Bentley or some other college; but Harvard does not offer a degree in accounting.</p>

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<p>A degree in these areas is a pretty safe path to an entry-level job in that field. But eventually, many accountants and engineers end up reporting to bosses with liberal arts backgrounds in addition to technical skills. Their liberal arts-related abilities to communicate to and interact with people beyond their fields, to critically evaluate information and make reasoned judgments, and to synthesize content from various sources into new understandings are what prepare them for leadership. And if they graduate and decide that, like most Americans, they’d not be happy spending a lifetime doing only what they decided to study at age 19, they’re positioned for career flexibility as well as leadership. I would imagine that that’s why Harvard intentionally avoids pre-professional programs (with the exception of Engineering) and offers instead a liberal arts approach to their concentrations - Econ instead of Business, Music Theory but not Music Performance, etc.</p>

<p>My younger daughter came home last week and told us that she’d decided to concentrate in Gender Studies. Will it lead to a pre-determined entry-level job? No, probably not. What it will do is to engage her in a multi-disciplinary approach to a subject that fascinates her. She’ll read, interview people, conduct field studies, participate in research, discuss current events in light of what she’s studied, and become a proficient user, producer, and communicator of knowledge. And then, I presume she’ll go to a graduate or professional school where those skills will be especially valuable and her degree from Harvard will encourage others to take her and her viewpoints seriously. I have no idea at this point as to what her career will eventually be, but I feel much better about the path that she’s taking rather than a narrowly pre-professional approach.</p>

<p>Our son initially planned to declare chemical engineering as his concentration, then decided against this plan because the engineering path at Harvard forces the student to bypass a good many of the core classes. He quickly realized that the whole point of going to Harvard is arguably the core classes! We agreed with him and felt that regardless of initial job prospects upon graduation, we would indeed be wasting our $200K in sending him to Harvard if he did not have the opportunity to explore a number of fields with such a faculty.</p>

<p>Regarding engineering, I have many parent friends with kids who graduated during the past two years in engineering and they are unable to find jobs in their field. Most are doing freelance software programming, no benefits, temporary gigs. I’m sure this will turn around for them and they will be fine, but unless the society is building things it doesn’t need to hire engineers. And we aren’t building much lately.</p>

<p>Of course, I hate hearing about Harvard grads stuck at book store jobs. But when I consider the various fortune 100s and fortune 50s I’ve worked at during my own career, I was always keenly aware that the new hires with pedigrees from schools like Harvard were firmly launched on an entirely different trajectory than me with my state U diploma. They simply had a completely different set of opportunities. GADAD describes this very accurately.</p>

<p>It is unlikely that medical schools will admit many who studied English or medieval studies although it can be possible. I was looking at the general trends in jobs after grdauation and yes, concentrations in accounting are not offered at Harvard but economic concentrations are. My point is not to choose a concentration for my D but to say I wish Harvard did a better job at advising students to go into fields where there were jobs either after their bachelors or after grad school unless of course the family was okay with the possibility of having their child live at home forever. In our case the ability to make a living has to be the number one priority in our family. As for Harvrad not being the best there is in Engineering, that is true but my D choose Harvard based on the other opportunities offered at the school. As far as where you go to college in Engineering, companies are always in need of engineers and will hire grads from even less than average state schools. If she becomes an engineer she can get a job after her BS, get an MBA and work on wall street, go to medical school or even law school with relative ease. English degrees will most likely not work out well for many areas other than teaching. Although, if you get very lucky, as you say, medical school may be an option. There are many possibilities for her and I hope she listens to knowledgable adults and weighs all the options carefully. It is no doubt a decision that one will live with forever.</p>

<p>Treeta:</p>

<p>I know of a student who majored in American history who got into HMS and another one who wrote his senior thesis on the politics of archeology in an Asian country who got into Stanford medical school. I do not keep count; these are two students whom I happened to know. The American history major did not even take the usual pre-med sequence of courses as far as I know. He was admitted into the Pathway program, which was launched in 1985. The other had; and he had also done health-focused community service.</p>

<p>As I wrote elsewhere, my H got his Ph.D. from Harvard in a science field that was hot when he entered it. Since then, his Ph.D. has been helpful, but not the specific field he got it in. Over the years, my H has worked with music and philosophy majors as well as CS MS or Ph.D holders. </p>

<p>We have a couple of friends, he with a Ph.D. in computer science and one with a B.S. in social work. He was once a tenured prof at CMU, decided to go into industry, got laid off, and is now teaching at a community college. She was a social worker for a while, then decided to study architecture, then decided to become a computer programmer. She is now a manager in a multinational company and earns several times more than her better prepared husband. If they had been in the same company, she’d be managing him.</p>

<p>One just cannot predict the future. Might as well enjoy college.</p>

<p>Harvard students can take all the accounting they want over at MIT.</p>

<p>Yes, so why go to Harvard instead of MIT?</p>

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<p>Not really. That might have been true decades ago but today, mastery of content in a technologically-based field is valid for such a brief period of time that it’s the liberal arts skills that last. Consider this USA Today article from a few years back:</p>

<p>Many top CEOs say MBA not necessarily ticket to success</p>

<p>George Bush may be the first president with an MBA degree, but U.S. business is run by CEOs with a hodgepodge of degrees in everything from atmospheric physics to French literature. Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina, a medieval history and philosophy major (Stanford '76), says her curiosity about the transformation from the Middle Ages to the Renaissance folds neatly into the digital awakening that she must now address. “A century of sustained and enduring human achievement” long ago leaves her confident that “we have, in fact, seen nothing yet,” Fiorina says.</p>

<p>Walt Disney CEO Michael Eisner never took a single business course as he earned a double major in English and theater (Denison '64). He has nudged his three sons into liberal arts. He was reminded of a favorite English professor, Dominic Consolo, when reading the script for “Dead Poets Society”, a movie about a passionate poetry teacher starring Robin Williams. Eisner considers it to be one of the best movies Disney has made. “Literature is unbelievably helpful because no matter what business you are in, you are dealing with interpersonal relationships,” Eisner says. “It gives you an appreciation of what makes people tick.”</p>

<p>Ambitious college grads peddling offbeat degrees in a job market gone sour can take heart that such success stories are far from rare. One-third of CEOs running the nation’s largest 1,000 companies have a master’s of business administration degree, according to executive search firm Spencer Stuart, many others do not.</p>

<p>Certainly, many CEOs take a more conventional educational path: Cisco’s John Chambers added an MBA to his law degree, and Enron CEO Kenneth Lay added a Ph.D. in economics to his MBA. But for every CEO who takes a businesslike approach, there are those who follow pure interests and trample practicality on the way to the top.
No one disputes that there is a place for the traditional MBA. Miramar Systems just hired a Harvard MBA for business development. But CEO Neal Rabin, who majored in creative writing (UCLA '80), says chief executives who learn at the knee of Harvard case studies know too many ways that companies fail. They find themselves paralyzed by fear, he says.</p>

<p>Michael Dell, founder and CEO of Dell Computer, was a pre-med biology major at the University of Texas before dropping out after his freshman year. Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates also left college without earning a degree. More typical, however, are executives who completed school but whose course of study now seems irrelevant. Others say the degrees helped launch their careers where economics, finance or business may have not.</p>

<p>Any good education would have been enough to get a foot in Corning’s door 37 years ago, says CEO John Loose. But it’s unlikely he would have been chosen for his first big international assignment without a degree in East Asian history (Earlham '64). “To have an understanding of the history and culture of Koreans, Japanese, Indians and Chinese was invaluable,” says Loose. Even today, Corning continues to court Asia as a rare bright spot in the depressed fiber-optic market.</p>

<p>Likewise Sue Kronick, now group president of Federated Department Stores, majored in Asian studies (Connecticut College '73). Her rise from a Bloomingdale’s buyer was helped by understanding India’s economic system so well that she found ways to slash the cost of imports. “My background served me well,” Kronick says. “You tend to get more narrow in point of view as time marches on. Liberal arts is about approaching problems from a different point of view.”</p>

<p>Just saying accounting and finance classes are available to Harvard students at MIT and some do partake (not my kid). Son knows some humanities concentrators at Harvard who have done this.</p>

<p>sewhappy: </p>

<p>Thanks, got it. And I know some MIT kids who take classes at Harvard. In fact, at the MIT admission session we attended, one of the two MIT students who were “on” boasted of his Harvard classes as a major MIT attractions. It seemed odd to me, but I knew an MIT student who got hooked on history at MIT while taking HASS and ended up studying Renaissance history at Harvard (but still got an MIT degree).
Taking some classes in a different field is not the same thing as majoring in that field, though taking a class or two in accounting or computer science might increase one’s chances of getting a job. That said, an awful lot of very successful people were liberal arts graduates.
Chris Hughes, one of the founders of Facebook (and the genius behind the Obama website), majored in History and Literature and wrote his senior thesis on some topic in French literature that even I find rather esoteric. Conan O’Brien’s own senior thesis was also in History and Literature.</p>

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<p>. . . and he also waited tables for a while on his way to the Tonight Show. :)</p>

<p>Here are a few excellent articles relating to the subject of student Concentrations and a Liberal Arts education from: Ellen Alemany, CEO of Citizens Bank [Finance</a> CEO Discusses Choosing Careers | The Harvard Crimson](<a href=“http://www.theharvardcrimson.com/article/2009/12/1/alemany-career-english-nbsp/]Finance”>http://www.theharvardcrimson.com/article/2009/12/1/alemany-career-english-nbsp/) , the Harvard Task Force on General Education comments on the value of a Liberal Arts education, and an essay by Harvard English Professor James Engell on the same topic, both at [Harvard</a> College Admissions § About Harvard: The Value of a Liberal Arts Education](<a href=“http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/about/learning/liberal_arts.html]Harvard”>http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/about/learning/liberal_arts.html)
It is pretty clear from these pieces that this is the philosophy and advice that undergraduates will generally receive from Harvard counselors and advisors.</p>

<p>I would just add that each student’s talents, passions, and temperament (in addition to the family’s history, philosophy and financial situation) are very different, so there is no one “right” way to choose a concentration or a career (or to advise from a parental point of view). Having said that, my own approach has always been to encourage our son to pursue those things where he has both a passion and a talent, and so far, this has seemed to work well for him.</p>

<p>By way of a historical perspective on the American Liberal Arts education, it was Harvard President Eliot (1869-1909) that moved away away from the classical curriculum (including Greek) during his tenure, and in the ensuing years the only core requirement for a Harvard degree was English composition and modern language.</p>

<p>Harvard President Lowell (1909-33) introduced the idea (and implemented the system) of a student concentration (major) with the remaining courses to be taken in broad knowledge areas–“….to know a lot about something, and a little about everything” as he put it.</p>

<p>Could anyone suggest a bakery that will deliver a cake for my daughter’s birthday, or one within walking distance of the yard where she can pick one up? Thanks so much!</p>

<p>Finale. Great cakes. I suggested it to a previous CC parent (whose D has now graduated) and she said it was a great success. It’s at the corner of Holyoke Center, so definitely within walking distance of the Yard.</p>

<p>If this is the same Finale (dessert restaurant) in Boston, GREAT CHOICE! I had no idea there was one in Cambridge. Thank you.</p>

<p>It is the same – there are locations in downtown Boston (near Boston Common), Brookline, and Harvard Square.</p>

<p>Swarthmore sends to its potential applicants a wonderful booklet titled The Usefulness of Uselessness. I credit this booklet for opening my eyes and putting the brakes on steering my older son into engineering. He jokes about his very multidisciplinary education and has a bumper sticker on his bulletin board that says something about “would you like fries with that.” His major is the amorphous Science, Technology and Society (at Stanford). It has been quite a stimulating journey for him and I am glad he has explored many areas of learning. What kind of job will he be prepared for? Who knows. But I very much like reading the prior posts regarding the infinite possibilities of a liberal arts education. And this is why my younger son attends Harvard, where he also will be exposed to broad disciplines and expand on his science/math focus.<br>
GADAD- A wonderful post that i plan to share with many an anxious parent.</p>