Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates arrested

secretgoldfish · July 25, 2009, 6:26pm

“… but we forced to conclude that the POTUS does prefer to rely on emotions, allegiances, and not so much on facts when they do not espouse his set of views.”

excuse me, xiggi, but what makes your assessment of the “facts” so much better/clearer than president obama’s?

and (for anyone who lives in an urban area), if an officer drives up in an unmarked cruiser, wouldn’t asking for a badge be a perfectly reasonable request, something that would elicit immediate presentation?

fwiw, my bias includes being a fan of professor gates’ writing, and i have a hard time believing that he said anything like “your mama” to a cop. i really appreciate the level of discussion on this forum (well, most of it); it’s given me a lot of insight into the way we perceive things. and ironically, gates is one of those people who is best at explaining why perception is such a curious amalgam of history, myth, experience, etc.

(and xiggi, i apologize in advance if i seem to pounce on you or single you out; you have a history of sharing your perspectives on this forum and i do not.)

Drosselmeier · July 25, 2009, 6:39pm

Yes. Absolutely. Indeed, if you are mugged by a black guy even once, it is acceptable that you would feel circumspect around black guys. As a black guy, I would completely understand this, and be sad for both me and especially for you. Because of this, I should say none of this is really acceptable, but it is understandable. I would not be angered toward you in the least about your perspective because you are having a reaction that is natural. You should have the same reaction toward white guys if one were to mug you. And indeed, there are women who have been raped by white guys and now cannot be touched by their own white husbands because of it. This is understandable. But it is not acceptable only because I think it is unfair that you should be saddled with this fear in your own town, neighborhood, home. I would hope that in some way you could get help to move beyond it and be free.

But none of this is what happens when it comes to blacks. What typically happens is that whites hear general reports from third, fourth, and thousandths parties, racist whites then corrupt the reports, and the news people veritably live in the inner cities for sensationalist footage that allegedly corroborates the ubiquity of black on white crime, and though the historical rate of crime against whites by blacks is practically non-existent compared to the historical rate of crime against blacks by whites, whites almost universally forget about all the disgusting criminal behavior they have heaped on blacks year after year, century after century, to focus only on the fraction of crime that takes place today. The problem with this is, it is a true double standard. The stuff going down today is directly rooted in what went down yesterday. We cannot forget any of it. We need to understand ALL of it, and develop ways to defuse it, much as I would understand your personal struggle with black men and be available to help you through it.

Drosselmeier · July 25, 2009, 6:46pm

Unalloyed nonsense. Hehe, this thing will be completely over and hardly even thought about in probably another week, if that. Indeed, you yourself will even forget about it, only a year from now going “oh, yeah. That did happen. So what’s for dinner?”

Obama was still right in what he said. He has never apologized for it. He merely regrets that the words were so harsh and that they implied the officer himself was not a good officer. The fact is, his comment that arresting Gates was unreasonable still stands, as well as it should.

Billy_Pilgram · July 25, 2009, 7:11pm

Hmmm, Gates seems to be backing down quite a bit. Very telling IMO: [The</a> Harvard Crimson :: News :: Tempering Demands for Apology, Gates Accepts Obama Beer Offer](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=528610]The”>http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=528610)

I suspect the good professor would certainly like it to be forgotten.

xiggi · July 25, 2009, 7:27pm

<a href=“and%20xiggi,%20i%20apologize%20in%20advance%20if%20i%20seem%20to%20pounce%20on%20you%20or%20single%20you%20out;%20you%20have%20a%20history%20of%20sharing%20your%20perspectives%20on%20this%20forum%20and%20i%20do%20not.”>quote</a>

[/quote]

Dear friend, there is no need to apologize for expressing a different opinion or challenging one you do not agree with.

And, by the way, welcome to our little community where we love to argue!

Northstarmom · July 25, 2009, 7:37pm

Does the Gates situation remind anyone else of my favorite movie, “Crash.”

I found the movie to be such an excellent way to get people to communicate on issues of race in this country that I invited people of all races over to my house to view and discuss the movie, and also held a viewing/discussion open to the public. People of all ages and races came. Younger S, who then was 19, was one of the facilitators as was I, and a white, woman Quaker friend. The discussion was illuminating and respectful.

I think it’s important for all of us to do what we can to reach across racial and other lines to connect with others in an empathic way including about hot topics like this. I think that’s what many are trying to do who are participating on this thread, and I thank you.

xiggi · July 25, 2009, 7:46pm

Unfortunately, this “thing” will never be over in a week. At least not the monster that has been created from nothing at all and molded into a racially motivated conflict.

The fact remains that a similar situation with actors of different races would never have resurfaced days after the original incident. Had the offensive and uncontroled behavior be of someone such as Larry Summers and the arresting officer be from a minority group, the only talk would have been about the boorish attitude of Harvard primadonas. Same thing if the conflict would have been among people of the same racial subgroups.

It takes people with a clear agenda to make this an issue CAUSED by racial profiling, and Obama fell right into the trap. It was a mistake to reintroduce the element of race in the debate, and somehow give it a presidential imprimatur. There are many things he could have said in support of Prof. Gates without ratcheting the rhetoric.

Fwiw, there is a huge difference between finding the arrest to be a mistake and clinging to the utterly erroneous notion that the arrest was a result of racial discrimination. A difference that some, blinded by their distorted views on racism and their own racism, cannot seem to understand nor accept.

In the meantime, the issue of racism and discrimination should remain high on the list of the priorities in this country. Comprehensive dialogues are extrenely important. It so happens that the Cambridge incident would represent an entirely inappropriate catalyst because using it as a platform would acknowledge that the incident existed because of racism, instead of the much more pedestrian truth.

Billy_Pilgram · July 25, 2009, 8:00pm

I believe you have finally distilled the Gates incident to its essence. Bravo!

poetsheart · July 25, 2009, 8:15pm

Well I, for one, do not cling to the notion that the arrest was a result of racial discrimination. I believe that Prof. Gates genuinely believes/believed that the way he was engaged in this incident reflected racial bias. And I believe that Officer Crowley genuinely believes race played no role in how he conducted himself in the incident. I don’t believe the entire account of either man at this point. I just hope that the two will indeed meet, come to an understanding, and move on. I don’t believe either man is evil—just tragically…
.
Human

purpleflurp · July 25, 2009, 8:35pm

Drosselmeier posted:

“…whites almost universally forget about all the disgusting criminal behavior they have heaped on blacks year after year, century after century, to focus only on the fraction of crime that takes place today.”

Drosselmeier posted:

“But it is not acceptable only because I think it is unfair that you should be saddled with this fear in your own town, neighborhood, home. I would hope that in some way you could get help to move beyond it and be free.”

Physician heal thyself?

StitchInTime · July 25, 2009, 8:38pm

<a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062976148-post846.html]#846[/url]”>quote</a> …I think it’s important for all of us to do what we can to reach across racial and other lines to connect with others in an empathic way including about hot topics like this. I think that’s what many are trying to do who are participating on this thread, and I thank you.

[/quote]

The individual interactions of all of us are what make-up our society. These interactions are an inter-play of opposing forces: evolutionary predispositions, like [tribalism[/url</a>], and [url=<a href=“http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/]free”>Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)]free</a> will](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribalism]tribalism[/url”>Tribalism - Wikipedia)-based rationality.

If our tribal predispositions are to be ultimately overcome, the philosophy detailed in the thread [REAL</a> Diversity](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe-election-politics/676775-real-diversity.html]REAL”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe-election-politics/676775-real-diversity.html) will ultimately have to be adopted:

<a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062132705-post35.html]#35[/url]”>quote</a> Real Diversity!: Food for Thought on the Courage of one’s Convictions

Individuals adopting a philosophy of ‘Diversity’ should ask themselves if the philosophy extends to the decisions they make in formulating the next generation. Spouse selection is the #1 determiner of the next generation’s ‘Diversity’. After that, passing on a ‘color-blind’ spouse selection philosophy will lead to ‘Real Diversity’.

[/quote]

Bottom line: The procreative decisions we as individuals make today will impact future generations. If those decisions are influenced by a [social</a> concept of ‘race’](<a href=“http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm]social”>http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm), then it is inevitable that ‘race’ and all it ills will be propagated.

xiggi · July 25, 2009, 8:58pm

Well, PH, because I have learned to value your well-balanced views on many not-so-easy cases, I happen to believe you without hesitation.

I wish I could convince you that my problem with this entire case is not one of believing one man’s account over the other. I also believe that both men should have no problems whasoever reconciling their differences and realize that very little would have been required to defuse the entire event.

And, it is because this is clearly a case of human miscommunication and uncontrolled attitudes that it is so unwarranted to make one of racial discrimination, unless one party WANTED to make it one. And, in a nutshell, this why I consider the relentless desire to transform this trivial and, should I dare to say, stupid case into a national debate on racial interaction nothing but … incredibly worthy of contempt.

In a country that hopes for its people to be measured by their heart and soul and not the color of their skin, I do not think that people who cannot cease to paint everything in either black or white should be given a platform on which to address the rest of us.

And, based on this, it is regrettable that all the people who have pushed this racist envelope and made this incident one caused solely by racial profiling simply … increased the depth of the chasm among races.

Silvermoonlock · July 25, 2009, 9:14pm

I don’t think the chasm was increased, rather the depth was exposed. It’s deeper than we would like to think.

calmom · July 25, 2009, 9:18pm

I disagree. I don’t think there is a need in this case for more “facts” simply because of the nature of the arrest: disorderly conduct, man arrested on his own property.

Even you have said repeatedly that the arrest was unwarranted. I can add the lens of my legal training and experience to that, including awareness of the circumstances under which such charges can properly be brought, and my acute awareness of the various First Amendment / Constitutional law cases that have arisen over such laws – and I know that there is no set of “facts” that could likely come out that would justify that arrest.

Shouting in one’s own home is not “disorderly conduct”, because the offense involves creating a disruption in a public place. Making insults or accusations against the police officer is not “disorderly conduct” because anything the Prof. could have said short of a direct threat is protected free speech, and a threat would have led to a different charge.

But my legal training and experience is no more than what your common sense already told you: this arrest was bogus. (I’d note that it is possible to cite someone for disorderly conduct without making a custodial arrest – if your kids have a noisy party in your house and the neighbors complain, the 2nd time the cops come around they are very likely to issue such a citation, highly unlikely to put anyone in handcuffs).

Obama was quite gracious (as is typical for him) in saying that he should have tempered his language somewhat - but the point is the same: the arrest showed poor judgment on the part of the Cambridge police. The homeowner should not have been arrested under those circumstances whether he was black, white, or purple. Making bad arrests opens a police department and a city up to potential liability for false arrest – so cops need to be trained better to avoid such mistakes. When the bad arrest involves a white cop arresting a black man, it adds to overall mistrust and allegations of racism, even if there was no race-based intent, and good police work also includes sensitivity and a need to develop good relations with the community. That part is not just a black vs. white thing - it also comes up in such as how cops treat women in d.v. or rape cases, or any sort of contacts with various ethnic communities. The point is, all cops in a community are safer and better able to do their jobs if they can build positive ties with the people who live there.

A good cop would have backed down and left as soon as ascertaining that person in the house was the homeowner. A good cop should have a knack for defusing these sort of situations, not ratcheting up the level of tension. And a good cop doesn’t make arrests that won’t stand up in court.

And I certainly think it is appropriate for government leaders to set the standard, rather than simply reinforce a circle-the-wagons approach.

It WAS a “stupid” arrest. So Obama’s right: he could have chosen a different set of words, but he spoke the truth, and I think its a good thing when the US President is willing and able to do so.

zoosermom · July 25, 2009, 9:33pm

What I think or say is very different from what a governmental official should say in public when prefaced with “I don’t have all the facts.” That distinction is the problem I have with President Obama’s statement. In THIS particular case it was a ridiculous arrest but things aren’t always what they seem in the heat of the moment and I do think emergency responders should have the benefit of silence until that preface is not required.

I agree with you that the making of what appears to be a ridiculous arrest is a case in point that should be taught to officers to exemplify what not to do.

However, I think Professor Gates would be a great citizen were he to say that if an officer is investigating a possible crime against you, it’s almost always a good thing to cooperate with the officer so you can be safe – or at least determine that you are a possible victim before flying off the handle.

We’re all assuming that, myself included. I will STILL be interested in reading the contents of the tapes and seeing if we’re all right or if there’s more nuance in the actual moment.

xiggi · July 25, 2009, 9:43pm

In this precisely because the depth is deeper than we think and the problem so enormous that it is essential to focus on REAL cases, and not the trivial case of Cambridge that is nothing more than an embarassment to all parties involved.

Aren’t there enough REAL cases that we have to build a national debate led by the POTUS on such a inconsequential and frivolous case that., at best, hinges entirely on the debatable credibility of at least one of its protagonist.

If race ought to be central to the discussion, this circus is surely not where to start. Take out the ARREST itself and what do you have left? Nothing. Nothing at all.

Unless one wants to futher the fantasy that Skip Gates was ONLY arrested because he happens to be a black man in America.

Drosselmeier · July 25, 2009, 9:45pm

Indeed yes. But when I must personally suffer from white cops who assume I have drugs (when I have never once even had so much as a cigarette), and from other whites who by implication believe I am somehow guilty for the crimes committed by other blacks, and when I have to deal with whites who apparently have little concept of the fact that whites have caused the vast majority of racial crimes against blacks (even from America’s earliest beginnings) and that this has the most profound effect on black crime today, it makes healing myself exceedingly difficult.

I nevertheless think it is my responsibility to heal myself, just as it the responsibility of mugging victims to heal themselves. I accept and even welcome the challenge, since it is irrational to expect people like you to even understand what is really going on here.

Events like this Gates affair do not increase racial chasms. They simply are not that powerful. They expose the chasms that already exist, and that have long existed. In a conversation with my children tonight on this matter, one of them said that issues of race are essentially treated like religion and politics, but worse. We may dance around them, will think highly of ourselves for writing articles and shooting films on them. But we will rarely get to the place where we are willing to look honestly into ourselves and expose where we truly are on them. To get to that most sensitive place, we need incidents like the OJ Simpson Trial, and this recent case with Gates. Then the truth explodes forth, removing from everyone the comfort of our lies.

It could be that I am wrong in my view of the cop, of the neighbor, and of Gates. I do not think I am because racism, of the sort I have in mind, is like The Matrix. Still, I certainly could be wrong. But I have decided not to withhold judgment here because I wished to be honest and admit, plainly, that I am already as committed against the cop as you are committed against Gates. Yes. Many of you may say you are uncommitted either way, since you were not there and do not yet have enough information, and blah, blah, blah, telling lie after lie. But were you to comb through your statements and view them truthfully, with your genuine intent in mind, you may see the truth that you are in fact committed to a posture against Gates, and that you were committed to a position against him before the discussion began. I think the vast majority of you were, in fact, committed to a posture against Gates before the incident even took place. You were committed to a posture against him last year, last decade, and your ancestors were committed against people like Gates last century, and in the century before last, and so on, and so forth. LOL

poetsheart · July 25, 2009, 9:49pm

Thanks, xiggi. I really do appreciate your saying that.:)

I believe you. I also believe both men should have no problems reconciling their differences (because I believe them both to be ultimately reasonable people) and realizing that they both could have done some things differently. It really is such a —well, such a sad case.

I think many Americans quickly came to see these two very real individuals as merely symbolic of our nation’s entire racial sociology and history, and fastened upon them our own personal sense of group alliance and fealty. For most of us, I think that a lot seemed to be personally at stake concerning the outcome of this thing as far as who was telling the truth, who had been wrongly accused, etc.

xiggi · July 25, 2009, 9:57pm

I think that we have arrived at the same conclusion. It is based on said conclusion that I think it is so wrong to cosnider this case worthy of further debate, especially on a national basis.

Oh well, this is probably as great a place to abandon this debate I’ll ever find!

FLVADAD · July 25, 2009, 10:57pm

One of the most insidious elements of racism is that it can be so subtle, inconspicuous and covert. It’s not all about old fashioned lynchings or being dragged through the streets for all to see. It’s also in attitudes, gestures, double speak, fake gratitude, false acceptance, questionable abuses of authority, and similar nuances where true motives can be disguised. It shows up in ways that are easily denied by the perpetrators who might feign surprise or misunderstanding once called onto the carpet. This is especially true of person to person interactions without recordings, impartial witnesses, etc that can be offered as evidence.

I’ve been on the receiving side of such things, and they are just as real , just as palpable, and usually just as obvious as the banners and signs from the Jim Crow era – to me that is. But to those who don’t want to see it, well, it’s subtle enough, questionable enough, and hard enough to prove that they can draw whatever conclusion they prefer based on whatever they are predisposed to think about such things.

I admit that the repeated exposure I’ve had created a certain questioning and even paranoia when I was younger. If you go through it enough, certain instincts are sharpened. It’s how some people cope. One is left to wonder about certain outcomes, replay certain conversations, question motives, etc. Sometimes you let it pass, sometimes you react to it, sometimes you might over react, and yes, sometimes you might think you see something that isn’t really there or intended. That’s the burden of being subjected to racism over the course of time. You rarely forget what has happened in the past, but remembering too well sometimes results in making some wrong calls in the present.

So to me it doesn’t matter that some are upset that a racial element was infused into this case. Sorry it upsets some of you so much. I understand where you are coming from to a certain degree. But when you’ve been on the receiving end as I have, you also come to understand that the smoking gun is not always going to be present to prove it to the naysayers. But the absence of it doesn’t make the experience any less real. Not being able to definitively prove the experience doesn’t mean one is imagining things. But, unfortunately, things are also not always what they appear. To me that is the incredible burden of having been subjected to racism from an early age.

Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates arrested

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