<p>Excellent post #849, poetsheart.</p>
<p>Something that is unfortuante about the affair is the fact that incidents such as this are about the only direct experience I have ever had with racism (aside from jealous by some white guys). For most of my life I have never felt different from white people and never even noticed the difference at all. I mean before applying to college and seeing all the diversity things and hearing about how minorities are “systematically” disadvantaged it never occurred to me that there was such disadvantages in the system. I guess I am particularly lucky in this regard by growing up in a generation where race for the most part really does not matter. Heck I remember going to a leadership conference in DC and forgetting that I was black (because I was one of the few blacks who were there) and because NOBODY ever treated me differently in any way. White people have always been incredibly kind, open, and respectful to me from the very old to the very young (and being the trademark token, i interact with ALOT of white people). </p>
<p>For me an unfortunate consequence of this event is that it required an analysis of things in black and white, something that never really before impacted me in my daily life.</p>
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<p>Idk about this, I mean race plays some role in spouse selection (I don’t date hispanics or asians) but that is for different reasons. Spouse selection is alot more complex than simply race I mean I like white girls mostly and some black girls and that is pretty much it, but that has less to do with race and more to do with white and black girls being more attractive than other races. So the “race blind” concept is kind of dumb, because some people are more attracted to one race than another.</p>
<p>For instance i have several black friends who mostly or only date white people because that is what they prefer.</p>
<p>What gets me, FLVADAD is when people deny racism that is as plain as the nose on your face. When people write highly regarded books that come right out and say that grade and test score disparities between blacks and whites are clearly a function of inferior genes in the aggregate black population, then further posit that this purported genetic inferiority explains “everything” about black people, When they cap it off by claiming it’s not racist to say such things (despite the fact that such beliefs easily conform to the dictionary definition of racism), it sends me into a kind of frustrated rage. The new strategy seems to be to deny, deny, deny even the most blatant manifestations of racism, and say that it is you who are being racist, you, instead, who are “playing the race-card”—the new catch-all retort; After all, nobody called you an “N”, and nobody demanded you sit at the back of the bus—LOL!. </p>
<p>I agree with you that subtle manifestations of racism are almost as bad, allowing people to cloak themselves in the mantle of “plausible deniability”, leaving you to play the scenario over and over in your mind in an endless loop, wondering, "Am I being overly sensitive or did what I think just happened, happen? The thing is, I think a lot of people who honestly hold us in contempt as a demographic have somehow convinced themselves that they aren’t racists in their attitudes toward us. It’s the darndest thing, the most bizarre cognitive disconnect! They believe that we are (on average) lazy, stupid, criminal, promiscuous, violent, and morally lacking in most categories, but nope—they’re not racist in the least. It seems, however, that the worst you can do to a racist is to call him a racist, though… Then, it’s how dare you!?:rolleyes:</p>
<p>Nothing that I just said was made in reference to the Gates/Crowley case, btw. Just my experiences and observations.</p>
<p>Makes you think, that’s for sure. My kid was the only Black student in her class for 3 out of 4 years. I can’t tell you if it was racial undertones or class undertones, but for sure, some white parents steered clear of us at functions and events while otherd became lifelong friends. Nothing like sitting at a table and everyone gets up to move to another table. Never mind that we paid full tuition like everyone else. </p>
<p>We were judged and we judged. The kid was also aware of ignorant racism while there. How do we quell it, or can we? Will it take many generations?</p>
<p>" Nothing like sitting at a table and everyone gets up to move to another table"</p>
<p>I had that happen at a PTO meeting at S’s school. I’m black, and gave a friendly greeting as I sat at a table that happened to have all white people. They all got up and moved.</p>
<p>I am grateful to the PTO president, a white woman as was the rest of the PTO board. She noticed the racial tensions in the group including the lack of any nonwhites on the PTO board, and she reached out to include parents of all races in activities and also integrated the PTO board. </p>
<p>A few years later, I was president of the organization, which continued to be a place where people of all races were welcomed, including in leadership positions.</p>
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<p>You call that “unfortunate”, dbate? I call that blessed as all get-out. I hope you never experience any personal encounter with racism, because that ultimately is what we’re working for—a country in which people aren’t treated poorly because of their race. BTW, you still haven’t experienced any direct incidents of racism if this case counts as the only one you’ve ever “experienced”. Celebrate man!</p>
<p>I agree with poetsheart! What dbate said is an example of how much society has changed since many of us were young.</p>
<p>The below is from a Washington Post follow-up article on the Gates’ incident. If people seriously take this incident as a teachable moment, perhaps in another decade, the only time young people will brush against racism will be in history books. </p>
<p>"In Cambridge this time last year, a young black man was removing a lock from a bike on campus when a Harvard police officer pulled a gun and demanded identification, according to a six-member committee report on the practices of the police department ordered by Harvard President Drew Faust. The youth showed the officer his Boston Public Library card, began crying and said he was a high school student working at the university. (Harvard police were also called to Gates’s home.)</p>
<p>Such incidents have prompted Charles Ogletree to convene meetings of police and community members over the years. Ogletree is a Harvard law professor and Gates’s attorney, and he is now helping to map out the citywide forum. Gates is going to participate, he said.</p>
<p>“The goal is for people to speak candidly and have the difficult conversation,” he said. “The constant factor in all of this fear. Police fear that they are encountering a situation that is dangerous, and suspects fear that police don’t care who they are and what they are doing. So, it is moving from fear to a sense of tolerance and a level of acceptance.”</p>
<p>The Cambridge Police Department is gathering law enforcement and policing experts to study the case as it looks for its own lessons, said Commissioner Robert Haas, though he added that his own review found that race played no role in the arrest.</p>
<p>Law enforcement experts nationwide are watching as the city and the incident become an important, if imperfect, petri dish for discussing racial profiling…"
[After</a> Arrest, Cambridge Reflects on Racial Rift - washingtonpost.com](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/25/AR2009072502177_2.html?hpid=topnews]After”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/25/AR2009072502177_2.html?hpid=topnews)</p>
<p>As a young minority, I’ve had worse experiences with less-than-stellar cops due to racial discrimination. Mine didn’t show up on the news though!</p>
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But you don’t know what the officer said or did before Gates lost his temper. As you probably know, Gates has a very different account of what happened than the officer. There’s no evidence that Gates was initially hostile – just wary, asking the cop for ID*. The officer entered Gates’ house and whatever set Gates off happened at some point after the officer had been inside the house for awhile. </p>
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<li>I’d note that if a cop asks a resident of a house to step out of a house, the person has a legal right to refuse. Police are not allowed to arrest people in their own homes without a warrant. If a cop asks to come into the house, the person has a legal right to refuse (unless the cop has a warrant). If a cop wants to interview a person or ask questions – the person has a legal right to refuse. And a person who is in their own home cannot be legally compelled to produce identification to a cop. So if Gates had simply answered the door, told the cop that he lived there, then asked the cop to leave and shut the door, Gates would have been 100% within his legal rights. No “cooperation” required.</li>
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<p>So there are a lot of geriatric white burglars in your 'hood? You must live in the mean streets.</p>
<p>It’s pretty ludicrous how people can’t see the role that race has played in this case.</p>
<p>If Gates were an old white man, chances are that the neighbour would just dismiss him as a forgetful old geezer who left his keys inside again, as opposed to a potentially dangerous criminal from the AARP crowd.</p>
<p>If Gates were an old white man, he would not feel so angry and bitter about being hassled by the police while he was in his own home.</p>
<p>Racial profiling is a myth. Blacks get arrested more because (this may sound crazy) they are engaged in more criminal behavior. </p>
<p>Here’s a study from Florida International professesors:</p>
<p>[JSTOR:</a> An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie](<a href=“http://www.jstor.org/pss/3598118]JSTOR:”>Race and the Probability of Arrest on JSTOR)</p>
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<p>To make this judgment, they used victim surveys (e.g. a person reports a crime and describes the perpetrator) and matched that will actual arrest data. Their results actually show whites are arrested more often:</p>
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<p>The above cited study does not deal with racial profiling. It only examined the arrest rate of suspects in reported rape, robbery, aggravated assault, and simple assault cases.</p>
<p>It is fairly easy to find studies that show racial profilings do exist.</p>
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<p>How dare you prejudge me because I am white (though dontno will argue that I’m not). I called it as I saw it. I saw an officer doing his job, I saw two egos flying. My ancestors never enslaved anyone, and they coexisted just fine with blacks in the urban cities of the north. They were appalled by Jim Crow laws, The Medgar Evans murder, the disgusting way schoolchildren in Little Rock were treated and all the rest. </p>
<p>How dare you lump me in with whites who have done bad things just because I have the same color skin. Don’t like when it’s done to you? Try not doing it to others.</p>
<p>And as a northerner, how dare you link me to slavery, Dross.</p>
<p>@ NCL:</p>
<p>Well it’s pretty damn close. But here’s one explicitly dispelling the “driving while black” myth.</p>
<p>Here’s the book:[Amazon.com:</a> Are Cops Racist? (9781566634892): Heather MacDonald: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Are-Cops-Racist-Heather-MacDonald/dp/product-description/156663489X]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Are-Cops-Racist-Heather-MacDonald/dp/product-description/156663489X)</p>
<p>Here’s a summary: [FPM</a> Article](<a href=“http://www.frontpagemag.com/Printable.aspx?ArtId=18488]FPM”>http://www.frontpagemag.com/Printable.aspx?ArtId=18488)</p>
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<p>@ Pizzagirl:</p>
<p>There’s something seriously wrong with you. You’re the perfect example of the mentally deluded liberal. I used to think it was only the religious who were severely messed in the head, that was until I started conversing with blind liberals like you.</p>
<p>dontno, do you believe all religious people are “severely messed in the head”, or only those that disagree with you?</p>
<p>@ hayden:</p>
<p>If one is religious (any strain) that implies one disagrees with me.</p>
<p>I think religious belief is a delusion. It’s akin to schizophrenia. But of course the amount of delusion varies and many people (like Francis Collins) can compartmentalize their minds and live day to day with reason and on Sundays spend an hour in lala land.</p>
<p>My statement was mostly in regards to fundamentalists, though a person who thinks they have to eat a certain way or dress a certain way because of God’s law is suffering from a delusion as well.</p>
<p>Well, I have to say that I’m surprised it took dontno so long to arrive on this thread, chucking bull pies by the handful.:rolleyes: Right on time he arrives, CC’s most skilled practitioner of the Deny, Deny, Deny Strategy; There’s no such thing as racial profiling, and racism is a thing of the past in America, too—right, Mr. “Blacks are genetically inferior “on average” and I’ve got the statistics to prove it—Oh, but I’m not racist.”?</p>
<p>dontno,</p>
<p>You seem to be making blind assumptions about people, based on how they vote or their religious beliefs. If you have read this thread from start to finish, you will see that there is a range of opinions whether this was a racist confrontation. We cannot agree, but at least we are trying to discuss it, and hear the different perspectives that people have about racism. </p>
<p>But it doesn’t serve your case to slam Pizzagirl in this thread. You have taken all of her arguments and dismissed them, just because she is a liberal. Bad move. </p>
<p>None of us like being lumped into a stereotype. Is there some truth to a label, any label? Perhaps. But once you go there, it is hard to see a person for the complex individual they are. The problem with the Gates and Crowley incident, is that both sides see themselves as perfectly in the right. When we can’t see the other perspective, we are doomed to failure.</p>
<p>Personally, I see why Gates thought he was right, yet, he handled himself wrong. In my opinion. But then, I was raised with the belief system that when an officer talks to you, you are deferential. I have taught my kids this, too. But we aren’t black, and our experiences with the police are somewhat limited - we haven’t been pulled over for being suspicious, but it has been for tickets or taillight or tag violations. </p>
<p>I can’t know what the life experience is of Dross or Dbate or Poetgirl. I can only know what I have experienced. They may have had run-ins with the cops for a variety of non-reasons, and then see themselves targeted or profiled. </p>
<p>We all have different opinions about things. I lean right. Others lean left. Can we see a common ground? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. </p>
<p>Can we learn how to get along in the real world, by having these often heated discussions here at CC? Yes, I think so.</p>
<p>We will never all agree, but it doesn’t serve the conversation to attack someone for their personal viewpoint, or their religion. Attack the viewpoint - not the person.</p>