Has "men's business casual" changed over time?

@Pizzagirl wrote in #133:

I agree with you on that statement, I just disagree with the very next thing, when you say what makes it easy. What makes it easy isn’t to go and buy clothes that match some sort of wildly-guessed-at assumed-appropriate dress code, what makes it easy is this magical invention called the “telephone”, or, even wackier, this newfangled thing they call “email”, which the kids tell me you can use to telephone or email someone who works at a company to find out how people there usually dress.

Shorts & T-shirt might be acceptable to wear in some places of business, but it sure ain’t “business casual”.

Where I draw the line: if you wouldn’t wear it inside a church/temple.

All this advice about calling or emailing made me laugh. If the supervisor is as clueless as many techies are, the advice would be, “uhm, we wear clothes.” :wink:
As someone with personal experience in a half a dozen of biotech startups, I can vouch for what Pizzagirl says. Even in the office where everyone wears jeans and tees, no one would poke fun of polos/khakis/shirts, unless they are uber-designer duds with logos all over (a friend had a Gucci fan in their co., and said Gucci fan got the nickname Dr. Peacock).

I don’t know, GMT. Our church (Episcopal, which traditionally was quite formal) now has a Sunday evening service and men have worn shorts, old jeans etc. We are in the more casual south, but still…not sure that analysis works anymore!

Some places may define “business casual” as being dressier than khakis (i.e. like wearing a suit but you do not have to have the jacket and tie). It does look from reply #137 that either the OP’s son asked and found that to be the case, or is being extra conservative in targeting the dressiest end of what “business casual” might mean.

In which case you could presumably decide that there’s no actual fixed dress code.

Or you could call, you know, HR—one of the things they’re quite excellent for.

“Or you could call, you know, HR—one of the things they’re quite excellent for.”

You know, those people in HR… in my experience, they never get out beyond their carpeted offices. So what HR’s policy says may not be reflective of what the working folks wear. :wink:

“When I worked in LA, we could wear jeans on Friday. We still wore dressy tops and nice shoes. When a 50+ new staff member came in casual jeans! gym sneaks! ponytail! I knew that was a no-no. On. Monday, she was fired, allegedly for weak notes.”

A) what’s wrong with a ponytail? I wear mine in a ponytail all the time.
B) the normal and appropriate response to your new staff member’s too-casual dress would have been to gently pull her aside and let her know so she could correct it for the next day - give people the benefit of the doubt. Firing her just for that is lazy, poor management.

Re: the firing of the 50+ new staff member. I’m going to guess that her garb was the straw that broke the camels back.

Where I worked…some folks were actually sent home to change clothes. But no one was fired.

PG!

I wear a ponytail a lot, always with nice bands. I have a collection of clips too, with turquoise, crystals, etc.

As Thumper speculated, that was one more sign that new staff member was not going to fit in. She had already observed another “casual” Friday. Everyone dressed as usual, except with nice jeans.

And yes, the management team was worst I have ever worked with. I starting applying for a different job within a month.

When helping my son shop for his internship, my older son suggested shopping at Express - the styles are young and fashionable. He suggested the slim (photographer) pants in 4-5 different colors - he says once you have decent pants, the shirts are easy! Then get some button downs and polos and decent shoes (we have good luck at DSW).

I work with companies all over the world and have helped started up a couple of companies as well as the small one I run. I want to have focus on what I am saying and not create dissonance between how I look and how they expect that I will look, so I try to largely match their code but at the high-end (they typically think they are paying us very well so the clothes ought to look expensive, though I buy everything on sale). So, I am a bit of a cultural anthropologist about how people in offices dress.

Business casual means different things in different places. I always want to fit in, so when I am going someplace new, I have my assistant call and ask what the dress code is there.

In some places, they still wear suits and ties. I do a fair bit of work in the UK and unless you are meeting with the CEO/EVP level, the basic uniform at most of my clients there is a suit but no tie. In the US, ties are a lot less frequent but in Asia, my clients will be wearing ties except for at off-site meetings. I was just at a meeting in Switzerland and the top guy at the meeting, a C-Suite guy, wore a tie while two other males (American) wore suits but no tie and a Brit wore a tie but no suit jacket. (I wore a suit and tie because at the prior meeting with Mr. C-Suite, he wore a tie).

In the US in most corporate settings, business casual used to mean slacks, a button-down shirt and a sportcoat/blazer. Now it is much more slacks (sometimes but not always including khakis) and a well-pressed shirt but in some companies can mean a polo shirt also (and some not).

I helped start up a quantitative hedge fund and introduced several very large hedge funds to the firm who became its investors. I would warn the investors that the team (other than the guy who ran the firm) thought getting dressed up meant their t-shirts didn’t have holes and so they should dress however they wanted but not to dress up on our account. My son’s software startup had a similar dress code, but he would dress up for external meetings. A friend set up a meeting for my son with the CEO and BD guy for a successful larger startup. He wore a suit with no tie and they sort of teased him as they were wearing t-shirts.

Given the variability, I would suggest, as ucbalumnus did, that the best approach is just ask the dress code. If you just ask generally, they will say business casual. So, I ask explicitly, “Does business casual mean a suit with no tie, slacks and a blazer, slacks as a buttoned down shirt, khakis and a golf shirt, or jeans?” Sometimes, it is useful to ask a female as women may be more observant.

My brother (computer geek) headed to a NYC meeting with someone he was going to be working on revamping their database programs. He had a button shirt, no tie, long shoulder length gray hair, slip on shoes and cargo pants. It was not Friday. They hired his firm anyway. I guess people are used to the computer guys dressing down!

Our S had summer engineering internship at NASA in Newport News. I believe he wore various slacks (non-denim, not jeans) and long sleeved button down shirts, dark socks and leather shoes. In his EE career, he mostly continues to dress that way.