<p>Opie - I think you missed my point that all students are not created equally. I have a lot of Cambodian and Vietnamese patients. These parents do not believe in challenging the teacher or the doctor, for that matter. These kids are not going to ask anything! Kids should not have to be hypervigilant about their grades. Teachers should be hypervigilant as that is their job! I have a son in a southern school so I know what you are referring re: ask politiely and diplomatically ( and I am sure that is typically the first pass) but not only are parents here in the NE intense, teachers and administrators are too! Plus, there are politics, politics, politics. Different culture, different expectations (smile).</p>
<p>Oh, I forgot to mention that I was a teacher for two years before going back to school. And, today, I consult with schools. I have lived the teacher’s lifestyle. That is what forms a lot of my perspective on this issue.</p>
<p>Rileydog-Yes, it’s true that our negotiated school day ends at 2:10 (2:50 at my school) and it is equally true that we can only be required to work beyond that time once per week or whatever the terms of a given system’s negotiated agreement states. However, stop and think. Do you go to Open House? (Back to school night) Are your children’s teachers there? Contractually they probably can not be required to attend but I would hazard a guess that most do. Have you attended plays, dances, ball games,etc? Were teachers there beyond the required hours? If they do leave at 2:30 when do their lessons get prepared and papers graded? I’m betting it’s at home. Teachers frequently work well past the contractual work day in order to accomodate parents yet, if it is necessary for us to have a plumber, an electrician, or appliance repair person to come to our houses we have to take off work. </p>
<p>(By the way when I say I don’t buy it I’m not doubting that the principal, parents, and superintendent said these things. What I don’t buy is there excuse)</p>
<p>It is not my intent to set an adversarial tone with regard to parents. As you saw in my earlier post I do not condone the flipping of desks. What I’m saying is that the principal’s excuse for not dealing with the teacher in question was a cop out. The same holds true IMO for parents who expressed fear of retribution if they filed complaints. I’m sorry I’m just not buying it. No teacher’s union is powerful enough to stop removal for cause if the administrators involved document the situations and follow through with evaluations, etc. Sure it might take time, but if a principal is truly committed to providing what is best for the kids in their school they will follow through with the process of removing a teacher.</p>
<p>As for work to rule efforts I can certainly sympathize with you with regard to the writing of recommendations. When we were forced to work to rule in our system that was the one concession I made for my students. On the other hand, work to rule efforts are often the only way available for teachers to demonstrate to the public how many things we do outside of our contractual work day. It is virtually impossible to do the job capably otherwise.</p>
<p>“Opie - I think you missed my point that all students are not created equally”</p>
<p>REALLY ;)? BOY THAT IS NEWS TO ME!! I WOULD HAVE NEVER KNOWN THAT. </p>
<p>“I have lived the teacher’s lifestyle”</p>
<p>REALLY;)? </p>
<p>After two years, you know? REALLY?</p>
<p>I guess I should change my really’s to “that’s nice” to go with that joke about southern belles… the one where the words “that’s nice” replace the words for BS. 
But you go on now. ;)</p>
<p>wharfrat - I have said there are many committed teachers and, as in any profession, there are those who go the extra mile and those who don’t. I think what I am trying to say is that teachers do not seem to realize that there are many underpaid and stressful fields in which doing “extra” hours or “extra” tasks is just part of the job - done without extra pay or extra credit - and many of your students have parents in these jobs. If teachers expect working parents and taxpayers to feel sympathethic, they have to develop some sensitivity to the demands of jobs outside of teaching - the time put in, the level of accountability, etc. and the unique benefits that teaching enjoys. Most people receiving a paycheck are directly accountable to somebody - teachers, the accountability is quite indirect and difficult to enforce. </p>
<p>Teachers are not the only ones who “may” have to go beyond the normal work day and frankly, my normal work day does not end at 2:50. I don’t mean to harp on that difference in time but to a working Mom those extra few hours after school make quite a difference in stress and lifestyle (yes, Opie - lifestyle)! </p>
<p>Personally, I think a teacher should be required to attend open houses as part of their core job responsibilities and to stay after school more than one day/week. If the student doesn’t understand something today the teacher gives the name of a tutor at $75.00 an hour. This is nothing like when I went to school - teachers were there every day after school so through the years the teachers have gained but the students have lost - isn’t it about the students at all? Letting one year go to force bargaining power means that 12 years of studying and work is at risk for the senior students teachers would not write references for. Since our school went through that I have had no respect for the teachers involved. I have to entrust my children to teachers. Teachers who would take that trust and use it against a student should be ashamed IMNSHO - there are other ways to make bargaining points than hurting students. It’s late - I am not down on teachers. I would just like teachers to walk a mile in my shoes, or some of the other parents’ shoes, who are working in other service industries for some perspective. </p>
<p>BTW, our teachers get stipends for any clubs or programs they supervise or participate in. I am certain it is not enough of a stipend but, again, many of us do more than we technically get paid for because we are professionals and are committed to the work.</p>
<p>wharfrat - I wanted to mention that you have to take time when you need a plumber because you are a non-exempt employee - not salaried. The labor board provides employers with criteria to help determine who is exempt and non-exempt. If you are salaried you can wait for your plumber and still be paid if you go in later, provided that you get your job responsibilities done. If you are not salaried then your employer is required by law to pay you for the hours worked or allowed to work. It is not unique to teaching. If youare in a union you are not salaried. I am sure someone on this board knows more about this than I do but years ago I had to attend a seminar on the labor laws as I have both salaried and non-salaried employees.</p>
<p>Also, you may be right about the principal’s push off but if it took me tons of meetings and paperwork, and two or three years to have an impact on a teacher’s behavior, I think I might save my efforts for teachers having sex with students or something else highly winnable. It’s a bad situation if it takes that long to have an impact on a teacher’s behavior.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, you may be right about the principal’s push off but if it took me tons of meetings and paperwork, and two or three years to have an impact on a teacher’s behavior, I think I might save my efforts for teachers having sex with students or something else highly winnable. It’s a bad situation if it takes that long to have an impact on a teacher’s behavior.[/]</p>
<p>So what you’re saying is you don’t blame a principal for allowing a problem teacher to remain in the classroom because it’s just too much hassle to go to the trouble of removing them? If that’s how you feel then frankly you’re as much a part of the problem as the teacher and/or the principal. Instead you would rather issue blanket indictments of teachers and unions on a discussion forum. I understand completely, that’s a whole lot easier than actually doing something about the problem.</p>
<p>“I understand completely, that’s a whole lot easier than actually doing something about the problem.”</p>
<p>spot on.</p>