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<p>I wasn’t referring to you… nowhere is your name in my post</p>
<p>The reference to “you guys all sound like…”
Since I’ve made multiple posts on here and my post was the last one, I took the word “all” to include myself.</p>
<p>Referrung to posts 61 and 62, there’s really no argument here that I can perceive, although it happens a lot among people who care passionately about education. If I may, hops: you’re a loyal kid of 2 teachers so you hear a lot of dinnertable venting that is legitimate. I’m a teacher too, although from elementary grades, and I know it’s necessary to share it with family to keep up the strength for an arduous task the next morning. In h.s., many students do express a “spoonfeed me” attitude to teachers as part of their maturation process. I’m referring to both adults and students because I know I, too, had to “grow up” about what I expected from schools relative to what I expected from my children.</p>
<p>Without losing that great loyalty to your folks, it’s also helpful to separate those feelings from discussions where the teacher is the object of inquiry, but the attitudes are different. In fairness, if you look at how this key poster responded immediately to learning where there are books and asked for better resources as well, I perceived s/he’s a go-getter and will self-study to the extent necessary to compensate for what the teacher doesn’t or can’t bring. Although, admittedly I did catch a bit of “whine” in her writer’s voice, too, in the first posts. She’s mostly worried about her AP test and is doing all she can early on to ensure a good outcome. In that way she IS taking responsibility. In the meantime the poster responded to Opie’s guidance on trying to see if there’s any help possible from administration. On top of that, an experienced parent put it all into perspective (for me, anyway, as from a family who never touched the science AP’s, just other topics…) that Bio has a huge amount of memorization. This also might explain why the teacher doesn’t always know the answer off the top of her head to every factual question asked in class, BTW. THis doesn’t mean she doesn’t present it fully as a group of concepts extremely well. The poster wasn;t quite clear which kinds of questions the teacher couldn’t reply to in class, just that there were many. And now the class has just received their TEXTBOOKS! Heavens, so late–that’s a shame; I’d also mention that to a principal as hindering your learning! that’s huge.</p>
<p>So everyone’s exploring solutions productively and creatively here, IMHO, which isn’t the same as expecting a teacher to spoonfeed anyone. Parental teacher bashing doesn’t do much to help students except perhaps to sell baseball bats and chewing gum. I’ve read some wicked h.s. teacher-bashing threads on CC and stand up for teachers on those, but to me this one feels like a more honest inquiry for solutions.
But hops…maybe you’re seeing something I’m missing. I don’t have all the answers either, am just another poster.</p>
<p>There is nothing more helpful to a schoolteacher than her own children, I’ll add. They take a lot of it in the ear, and sometimes about their own agegroup which isn’t emotionally easy for the kid. My S is a young adult who recently began dating a schoolteacher. He mentioned that she needs to vent about her students (autistic ones and she loves them, but the task is so hard). He told me he has a lot of patience for just listening to a teacher’s day (from me) and we both laughed about that one.</p>
<p>timed out – re, “whine in early posts” which CHANGED as she heard more help-- i hope it was clear from the context above I was referring to kelspianogirl there, who began to post midway through–and not in any way directed towards the OP! This thread has gone into other related topics. I know sometimes people tune in to just the first and last posts on the longer threads. I was NOT referring to the OP!</p>
<p>p3t,</p>
<p>I can understand where kelspianogirl is coming from. I understand it can be frustrating. And it wasn’t pointed at her either. Pointed at the group in general. That’s the society we’ve come to. Everything should be given. Not everyone is like that, but that’s what I’ve found present in this post.</p>
<p>Now personally, with the OP in mind, I see nothing wrong with zeros being inserted. Why should the teacher have to hold those holes open and try keeping it all straight. Stick a zero in to fill the spot and change it later. The state education system should not be allowing students to just miss at will for a religious holiday. Our school allows you to miss 5 planned absences. People ever realize that there are certain classes that if you miss more than a few days, you CANNOT pass? For example, in the State of Illinois a Drivers’ Ed student CANNOT miss more than 7 days of classroom. If a student does, they have their permit taken away.</p>
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<p>Miss at will? Every year you can guarantee that Dec. 24-25 and Easter Friday or Monday are automatically school days off.</p>
<p>Somewhere in the constitution there was wording about freedom of religion, so the state has to honor the religious holidays of all. They can’t make a full school day off for every major religion, but take off for the majority religion (Christianity). Then it’s the right of anyone else to take a day to observe fixed date religious holidays that are on the calendars of every state board of education. It’s an excused absence, but comes with the responsibility to make up all the work. </p>
<p>It could be hard to imagine, but let me put it this way: if you had a major test or assignment due in on the morning of Dec. 25, you’d be hopping around figuring out how to handle the conflict so you could become both educated and observe your holiday. Same thing.</p>
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<p>ouch, that argument won’t fly anywhere.</p>
<p>I do sincerely apologize if my previous posts came off as whiney. After rereading them, I do realize that they make me sound irritating and bratty. I didn’t mean it that way at all; I was just feeling very frustrated and probably should have waited to post anything until I was thinking more rationally. I really do appreciate all the advice and support I got here though; it means a lot. You guys are great!</p>
<p>"I was just feeling very frustrated "</p>
<p>Dearheart, that’s what I thought you were. If you were truly whiney, what a beat down you’ve been given. I gave you the advice I did because in your post I felt you were frustrated by the situation. The things you pointed out actually were far better than “i hate my teacher or my teacher sucks.” You pointed out situations. </p>
<p>Just remember, when you deal with things, it’s not the ememy on the otherside, It’s just somebody trying to do what they think is right. Depending on how you bring to her attiention your guys need for help, you might get what you want.</p>
<p>One thought as my kids AP teachers did, some saturday mornings classes to review, some evening classes (with pizza) to review. My kids two favorite HS teachers were their AP bio and chem teachers. Maybe if you guys offer to come in for extra help in masse, she might consider doing something like that. Never know till you try and ask.</p>
<p>good luck kid.</p>
<p>Wow, I’ve been fed up with some teachers grading policy and classroom manner, but all that takes a backseat to this:
AP: Sexual Misconduct Plagues US Schools
<a href=“HeadlineAlley”>HeadlineAlley;
<p>Opie, just an FYI - being nice and asking politely is always a first resort but it is also the easiest type of request to deny or put off - I am sure people ask nicely and are often rebuffed. It also doesn’t help the kid who is shy, whose cultural training doesn’t allow him to question teachers, or who doesn’t have the skills or emotional strength to challenge the teacher to have to rely on his/her own proactivity. The teacher is obligated to do their job thoroughly and to employ cross-check procedures around grading because, indeed, human error happens. Some teachers at our school do not return papers until the next term - grades are often a mystery! They never return midterms or finals. Last year my son received a D- on a final (1/2 year honors physics course) after two much better grades for the two quarters. The teacher was awful and the school had already asked her to leave at the midpoint. Well, we were shocked. Long story short, it took 3 months but we finally discovered that the whole test had been graded wrong (we had another Physics teacher from another high school review the errors in prep for the SAT II - a friend of my husband’s). He should have had a B+ or higher. When I brought this to the attention of the school via the department head, then the principal and then the superintendent, I cannot tell you the pushback I got even with the evidence in my hands that the test was graded incorrectly. They didn’t want to have to open up this issue as they had fired the teacher and hired a new one. Politics are behind some school/teacher actions. Kids have to be able to trust that the teacher is doing his/her job appropriately, just as patients have to be able to trust that labs are doing their tests properly. It comes down to doing your job, no matter what profession you are in - accountability. Unions give teachers a big cushion in that area.</p>
<p>I was right with you, Rileydog, until the last sentence about unions cushioning teachers. In my experience, every “perk” that makes a good or great teacher’s life liveable, so s/he can stay with this high-stress job for an entire career, came after a union fought hard for it. Examples: a duty free lunch (30 minutes) although often half of it was eaten with me returning phone calls to parents on their work schedule. The right to have a teacher’s aide stand in my room for 3 minutes if I’d been the sole adult in the room for
4 hours – so I could pee. The right to leave work on time, so I could pick up my own children from school. (I’d then return to work in the classroom with them). 45 minutes daily of a teacher’s aide (Grade One), put into the contract. The right to mutual discussion of my principal’s write-up after she observed my classroom. The right to file an addendum to her evaluation before it all reached the superintendent’s desk. The requirement that when I filed a report of assault on me by a student, there had to be a written response to me within a certain number of days.</p>
<p>I could go on and on with all the small things like these which came from hard-won union battles on behalf of teachers. A lot of the time the work of the unions concern the human dignity of the teacher’s body at work. </p>
<p>Teachers unions came into being because all over the country there were political firings of teachers. Tenure was a huge protection against the widespread problem of school board members’ patronage–removing a politically weak teacher so their friend or relative could take the job. </p>
<p>I know there are abuses and power relationships to discuss in the other direction, but in my experience the unions made a high-stress, essential job
liveable for the good teachers. Meanwhile it sheltered bad teachers from hasty removal, which is what most people believe unions do all the time. I think most union time is spent dealing with minute clauses about workplace rules.</p>
<p>LOL, most times when I hear people complain about teachers I ask them if they want to trade places – to stand alone in one room with 25 or 35 6-year-olds for 6 hours straight with just a 30 minute break, and no birthday cake. 
So far, everyone has declined.</p>
<p>paying3tuitions, I am the daughter of a union man - I supported unions until I worked in a hospital where some employees are unionized and some are not. And, I stopped supporting teacher’s unions when it took an act of God and many years for the community to get a bad teacher out of the classroom. When a teacher flipped a desk over on my son in 2nd grade and the principal, superintendant and community had no power over this teacher (whom records revealed had had many, many violent episodes in the classroom) I realized that unions offered too much protection for teachers. I support unions for all the reasons you mentioned - my father certainly benefited from being in a union, but there is a level of accountability that is missing here. </p>
<p>That said, I would trade places with you and I am sure I know many people who would. I work in a hospital and even though I am a professional there are oodles of employees who work very, very stressful jobs with very, very long days and also very low pay. Teachers are not the only service providers who have difficult jobs with pay that is not that of a Wall Street ibanker. OTOH, Teachers are very fortunate to have schedules that mesh with their kids, that offer vacation breaks, etc. There are days that I don’t get to the bathroom, never mind lunch break. And, yes, I am often at work past 6 p.m returning phone calls from families and patients. On top of that I have documentation galore to complete. My friends who are teachers have all gotten step raises each year and with each additional course they have taken. They are all retiring now and many will pursue another career while receiving a nice pension. I respect the job that teachers have but I think teachers do not realize that many others work just as hard in service industries and do not have unions to protect them. Nurses are unionized but many others are not. I would have loved to be home with my kids on vacations or snow days - that is a huge benefit of the job and perhaps it is also one that people trade for higher salaries. If you think a roomful of 6 year olds are difficult try working with sick/disordered infants, toddlers and kids AND their anxious parents all day long with no bathroom break and all of them expecting you to give them your complete attention, as you must, btw! I would not decline. Birthday cake? </p>
<p>So, I am with you that you have a difficult job but it is no more deserving or diffiult than some others who do not have the benefit of representation that you have or the benefits that come with your job. Unions should be there to help you with assuring coverage in your classroom, assuring that you do get lunch, and preventing political hirings and firings, but you are also a professional and unions should not be there to prevent you from being fired or even put on a probationary period if you are not doing your job appropriately or per agreed to standards of practice. Sorry - I am held accountable to DPH, JCAHO, my own profession’s standards of practice and those of the payors like HMOs, Medicaid, Medicare, etc. I would not only be fired on the spot for providing bad patient care, I would be sued by people. It would not hurt teachers to have more direct accountability to those who rely on them and pay them - kids, parents (taxpayers!) and superintendents IMNSHO. I think many parents who are out in the working world, with no unions, have a hard time with teacher’s POV on this. I don’t think that means they do not respect the difficulty of the job or the role in their children’s lives. Perhaps more people would want to trade positions with you if the image of the teacher was better. Obviously there are many great teachers out there who do their jobs well because they are true professionals and care about how well they do their job but we can all find many who also do not.</p>
<p>Rileydog, Amen…Your post perfectly captures my feelings. One can have ultimate respect for the teaching profession while at the same time express justified criticism & frustration.</p>
<p>Other peoples’ thoughts? (heh heh STickershock, we cross-posted!)</p>
<p>"Opie, just an FYI "</p>
<p>No, you are confusing being nice with being compliant. You can be professionally persistent while maintaining a friendly demenor. It’s not impossible. You simply need to figure out what makes the other side think their self preservation is at stake if they don’t consider your “suggestions”. You have to be wiling to let them “discover” the idea or concept you’ve brought forward as their idea. Sometimes a simple sentence with a friendly smile on one’s face solves alot of problems. </p>
<p>At no point have I advised this young person to sit back and take it. How you can confuse that isn’t my problem.</p>
<p>Rileydog, are you begrudging the gains teachers have made through union membership because you do not have the opportunity for union membership where you work? I am not putting words in your mouth, rather seeking clarification.</p>
<p>Agreed, a teacher should not have flipped over your son’s desk, however for principals to hide behind union power to avoid confronting a teacher who needs to be disciplined is IMO a cop out. BTW I am a teacher. Unions are not omnipotent, however administrators need to be diligent in their documentation of problems with teachers who do not conduct themselves competently and/or professionally.</p>
<p>Wharfrat, I think you should read Rileydog’s post again. I’m stumped that you would come to that conclusion, as Rileydog clearly applauds the gains teachers unions have made. This is what many of us who are frustrated with the teachers unions feel, and it was well said by RD:
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<p>It really gets old to hear teachers complaining about wanting bathroom breaks & non-working lunches when virtually everyone in any other profession has had to put up with these nuisances. Not to mention excessive hours, unpaid travel at the whim of their company, and most importantly – their own professionalism and work ethic as their only form of job security. In NJ, teachers unions ARE omnipotent. Teachers in my town have remained on the job, with six figure salaries, after having DYFS investigators monitoring their classes, being reported as abusers by psychiatrists, duct-taping children’s mouths closed & duct-taping them to chairs…etc., etc., etc. I know so many teachers who are outraged about the power of unions & their proclivity for defending the indefensible, that I’m always surprised when the kneejerk reaction on CC is to sing the union’s praises. The national teachers unions are the most powerful unions in the country. Their leaders have been quoted as saying they will look out for the children when the children are paying dues. It’s long past the time when unions were needed to ensure teachers were paid a living wage & treated as an important part of society.</p>
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<p>I have seen this statement cited many times, but I have yet to ever have anyone produce the actual statement itself. Where I teach a union cannot prevent an incompetent teacher from being fired. It cannot prevent a teacher who commits a criminal act from being fired. What it can do is prevent a teacher from being fired without cause and without due process. Neither of these things is a threat to any school system. All they take are principals and administrators who are willing to document that a teacher’s performance is unsatisfactory. I am a member of our associaton and a building rep. In ten years in that capacity I have yet to see our union contest the removal of a teacher for whom administrators have demonstrated that grounds exist for removal with cause. </p>
<p>As for comparable working conditions across professions, what prevents people employed in them from organizing to protect themselves from unfair and/or unreasonable practices? </p>
<p>I will in no way defend incompetence in colleagues. Teachers have a responsibility to perform professionally and competently. However, people who have not been teachers have a difficult time understanding the incredible responsibility and the relentlessness of our profession. I am not complaining. There is nowhere I would rather be career-wise than in a classroom with students. It is as invigorating and rewarding a career as anyone could hope for. While I will never get wealthy teaching, I have a comfortable life. What I do not understand is why people who are not teachers begrudge us for negotiating the best working conditions we can.</p>
<p>wharfrat - I think you are worth a salary more than any CEO’s or Ibanker’s! In fact, I have been on committees for overrirdes specifically for teacher’s pay and I surely vote for every override because I believe higher salaries will attract people of substance and quality to teaching even though my property taxes are now over $9k/year. I don’t begrudge you the right to organize and bargain because I don’t have the right to organize (which is a legal definition by the way - if you are salaried you cannot organize - only non-exempt employees may unionize). However, those of us who are salaried get to put in extra hours for free and without representation for better conditions and don’t complain about it! What I am referring to is the perspective that is rampant among teachers that their jobs are more difficult or more underpaid than others. It simply isn’t true. In fact, in some cities, teachers make a very good salary by most standards AND enjoy some pretty unique benefits. It might have been true years ago but it is not true now that teachers are at the lowest rung of the ladder with all things considered, including benefits. </p>
<p>Teachers have had a unique and unprecedented lack of accountability in their positions. They do not have to prove to a regulatory or supervisory agency that they have been good teachers. The curriculum requirements in our state are quite minimal. They only have to stay past 2:10 in my schools system one day/per week (Man, I would love those hours even considering that I still take work home after leaving at 6). In all honesty, I feel very badly for teachers today - they not only have to teach students who are able, they have to individualize accommodations for students of enormous variability in terms of disabilities and mainstreaming. This is a laudable goal, which many of my patients benefit from, but it is nearly impossible for the poor teacher to accomplish all goals - individualizing those with IEPs and 504s and teaching gifted and talented kids. Add to that the proliferation of different cultures and languages and the classroom teacher does indeed have a difficult task. </p>
<p>Teachers deserve our support and our understanding. But, they are not alone in having a challenging positions with less than ibanker pay. BTw, when the teacher flipped the desk on my son I met with the principal who told me she had no power over the teacher and that there had been many complaints against this teacher. When I called the superintendent the secretary told me that no parent had actually field a grievance because parents were afraid that future teachers would brand their family as a troublesome family, potentially impacting their kid’s grades. She also told me that a grievance would take over two years to come to decision. Two years to deal with a teacher who was flipping desks over in 2nd grade? The secretary was a neighbor of mine and clearly pointed the finger at the union representation as the reason why this teacher was still there. I didn’t take this any further but others did. </p>
<p>I don’t begrudge you the right to negotiate the best working conditions you can as long as you keep the mission of your position in focus and as long as you have some perspective about other professions. I am in a profession because WE have a code of ethics. One of those codes states that we will put the patient above all else. I do not see teachers putting the student above all else. We recently went through a year when teachers refused to write kids’ college recommendations as they were negotiating a contract. That is a low blow in my opinion and certainly eliminates any view of the field of teaching as an honorable profession.</p>