Have these teachers lost their minds?

Parent Cafe
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<p>While I agree that the “prank” was poor judgment, I feel that the response has taken on all of the earmarks of a witch hunt, starting with exaggerated theories of the damage possibly caused by the event, to funneling years of pent-up resentment at other teachers onto these individuals, to some twisted form of socio-political theorizing about how it demonstrates everything that’s wrong with society today.</p>

<p>Everybody needs to step back, take a deep breath, and relax. Revisit this issue a month from now and see if the hyperventilating is still warranted. My feeling is that the kids are more likely to be damaged by the fevered overreaction of (some of) their parents and others who are making hay off this than they ever might have been by the event itself.</p>

<p>If it were my kids I’d be responding the same way most of the parents whose kids were actually involved did: “It really wasn’t that big of a deal. Bad idea, lesson learned, move on.”</p>

<p>Oh, and this: “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”</p>

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kluge~</p>

<p>This is a vastly overused and tiresome response to any and all wrongdoing. Are you really saying that no one can ever legitimately “judge” the act of another simply because he is not “without sin”? </p>

<p>I have a sixth-grade D. To be perfectly honest with you, even if I were to react in a very matter-of-fact way to this bizarre set of events, I think she would be quite traumatized by them. My oldest son, not so much. But any of my three D’s?? Yep…just their personalities and temperaments (and coming on the heels of the tragic events at VT, even more so).</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

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<p>My feeling is yes, it was poor judgment–that’s the point. That’s why it’s so egregious. I think we should expect people who have positions of authority over children to be able to recognize and avoid such blatantly poor judgment, before they act on it.</p>

<p>And as far as your last quote–what does casting stones have to do with exercising responsibility and expecting consequences for poor judgment?</p>

<p>If you believe that all expectations of consequences for actions which may cause harm, and in any case demonstrate an inability to understand acceptable professional behavior, are “a witch hunt” which is “casting stones”, then when do you think people should be held accountable? Or do you not believe in accountability? Because since no one is perfect, I guess you are saying that no one should ever, ever be held accountable.</p>

<p>At least, that is what cheap use of that quote implies.</p>

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<p>When I was a kid (approx. 5th or 6th grade) I was in a Boy Scout-like organization. I remember going on our first wilderness camp out (no campground, no running water, no electricity, no people for miles). Our first night out we did the usual activities of a campfire with skits and scary stories, etc. Then, it was time to go to bed. We each got into our little 2-person pup tents and started to go to sleep in the total darkness out in the “wild”. Shortly after the last light was turned off and we started to doze off to sleep, we heard the voices of two “wild men” running through the woods toward our campsite, yelling, “There they are! Let’s get them! Kill them all!” </p>

<p>Our leader yelled, “Stay low!” … and boy did we stay low - I was one with the earth. He then went bravely out with a flashlight to confront the invaders. He was greeted with howls of laughter. It turns out the attackers were actually the troop’s two senior leaders who also happen to have the been fathers of two of the guys in my troop. After a moment or two shaking away the fear that we all had felt a moment earlier, we all laughed at the prank and considered it one of the highlights of the trip - one that I still recall with fondness after all these years.</p>

<p>While the proximity to such events as Columbine and Virginia Tech make such scares no longer acceptable, put me down in the category of those who think this is not the end of the world - just an ill-advised prank.</p>

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<p>as I tried to explain apparently not very well- I dont think that the kids reaction is the determinate whether something was in poor judgement.</p>

<p>For example- if a therapist- decided that “sexual” contact was necessary to help the client “get past” a block in her therapy- in most cases- wouldn’t many agree that was poor judgement, even if she didn’t resist?</p>

<p>Being in a position of authority- goes along with certain expectations and freedoms but also responsibilities.
Being in a position of authority over children without their parents presence holds even more responsibility.</p>

<p>One thing that kids need to feel when they are with trusted adults, is that they can trust them. They trust that their parents and their teachers won’t lie to them, that they will inform them of risks, but not exagerate or downplay risk.</p>

<p>I have had issues with past teachers lack of judgement- it is true- but that always concerned lack of academic accountability, not their physical safety.</p>

<p>I don’t think that those who are outraged at this adolescent behavior from a lead teacher and vice principal are now going to find it hiding in every door way.
This is a pretty clear cut case IMO.</p>

<p>But we do need a clear line- since there doesn’t seem to be one that is taught in the schools of education or even enough shared common sense.</p>

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<p>What I mean is this: Some folks seem to be competing with each other to find more extreme ways to express what a horrible, horrible thing these folks did. Yes, it was an error in judgment. We all, every one of us, make errors in judgment every day. The issue is: how big of an error in judgment was it? Was it “Get drunk and drive the wrong way on the freeway” bad or was it “Fail to stop and ask directions” bad? It’s really easy to minimize the significance of our own errors and magnify those of others. These folks have already lost thousands of dollars in pay. I consider that to be a pretty big penalty - but it’s clearly not enough for some CC posters (let alone the Nashville genius who suggests that stoning is too good for them.) The consequences for bad judgment should be proportionate to the egregiousness of that error - and I think you all are exaggerating the seriousness of this lapse. It’s easy to do, sitting at a keyboard, fired up by a slanted news story and egged on by other posters. </p>

<p>I don’t think this signals the death of Western Civilization. I don’t think any of these kids were scarred for life. I don’t think it will result in anyone dying or being physically, emotionally, or mentally injured. In short: Bad idea, lesson learned, move on. I do think a lot of people are seizing on this event to vent, project, and pontificate. In short - easy to cast stones, isn’t it? You may feel your own conduct would survive the judgment you pass on others - but others might not see it that way.</p>

<p>P.S. - a week after agreeing with Hereshoping here I am agreeing with FF. And yet, still no snowflakes. What the heck’s going on, anyway?</p>

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<p>Ya know what’s easy? It’s easy to throw around exaggerations like “cast stones” “witch hunt” “scarred for life” “end of Western civilization” etc etc.
Argumentation by sensationalism, rather than reason. Addressing of only the most extreme positions, not the reasoned ones like EK’s.</p>

<p>To me, an error is, “I read the map wrong. I thought east was west. My bad.”</p>

<p>A lack of judgment is when your actions may cause injury, or may not, but you don’t care, you do them anyway. Or, you don’t think about possible injury that could be caused, whether or not one is. So yeah, I think this does come closer to driving down the wrong side of the road. Someone I love was killed because some guy decided to pass on a hill with no visibility. He meant no harm–it was a lack of judgment. Should he drive again? No, I don’t think so–he displayed a lack of care and thought that drivers should always demonstrate.</p>

<p>Some people should not drive; some people should not teach. Not a matter of casting stones, but a matter of common sense.</p>

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<p>Indeed!</p>

<p>All good points here re positions of authority (including Vice Principal, yet!), imo.</p>

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<p>While anyone can make “an error in judgement” this was made by a group of adults not just a single person. I am appalled that no one stepped in and stopped it.</p>

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<p>I realize that everyone makes mistakes
What I have a problem with - is when “some” people make a mistake, they don’t admit to it- a story evolves to justify it, or it is someone elses fault.</p>

<p>That is what is so frustrating.</p>

<p>We all have horror stories- but when we share our stories and we are told- that we “misunderstood”, or that we are “exagerating”, or " I don’t see the big deal whats your problem?", that is demeaning and diminishes our own experience.</p>

<p>Which is why when a case that to many, is very black and white, brings up all those thoughts again, at least for me.</p>

<p>Maybe I just have a clearer sense of what I feel is right and wrong. I am a Libra- although I don’t really follow the astrological stuff and I am also very sensitive to thoughts and words of others ( as many introverted people are)</p>

<p>My kids, especially one, I could never even punish to my satisfaction, because if I just raised my voice or had an angry face, that was enough to send her off the deep end for hours.
She remembers things I said to her years ago- and she misremembers things and plays them over in her head- I dont think she is the only one.</p>

<p>As an adult volunteer in schools for the last 25 years, I try to be very cognizant of my words, of my behavior.
Kids remember and watch what you do, it takes on more importance because an adult is doing it & because they have a shorter lifespan of memories to compare it to.</p>

<p>I know that I have made mistakes- when I had weekly bookgroups for instance, I selected a book that I remembered loving, but hadn’t read for a while, for my 5th graders. I knew it was within their ability and it was relevant to the period of history they were studying in class ( as all our bookgroup choices were)</p>

<p>But while I was rereading it, my adult reference points glossed over the depiction of a rape of a young girl, whereas for at least a few of the kids- were very upset by it. If I had had more experience in leading bookgroups or even had read it recently before I passed it out- I could have avoided that.</p>

<p>I take responsibilty for that ( even though that was also the year that Ds class had lots of parent led bookgroups because they didnt’ have a classroom teacher)- although I guess it was a case of * you get what you pay for*.</p>

<p>I don’t think it was unethical to have them read “To Kill a Mockingbird”, but I should have sent home something to parents to prepare them for questions and to give them the opportunity to say they didn’t want their child reading it.</p>

<p>The situation in Tenn on the other hand was led by two experienced educators, at least I assume so by their job titles.
When we have training, we are less likely to make errors in judgement.
We count on our police to make good decisions although I suspect that some join the force for the ability to speed through red lights.
We expect our firefighters to be responsible, not to knock down things with fire hoses just because they can, and
we don’t expect teachers to be lying to kids about their physical safety, in order for the teachers to get a good laugh out of it.</p>

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<p>Kluge, while I respect your opinion, this time it seems like you are saying what you said in so many words on the Duke LAX thread regarding the suffering that the wrongly accused young men went through and that it was only a “blip” in their lives. </p>

<p>Now, you are saying this is not the WORST thing. Agreed. It is not the WORST thing. You are saying these folks are not the only people who have done wrong. Agreed. We have all done some things wrong at one time or another. </p>

<p>Still, this was POOR judgement. Still, this was wrong. I don’t care if it wasn’t the worst thing ever or not the only person who has ever done wrong or caused harm to others. This issue should still be addressed and apparently it has been by the teachers being suspended. It would not have been in the news if this was just a hunky dory thing to do with children.</p>

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<p>Two weeks without pay may or may not be proportional punishment for the gross lack of judgement these teachers used. I do think the local school board and principal with input from the parents should determine if that will be the extent of the punishment. </p>

<p>A high school art teacher in my locality lost his job because he “painted” pictures with his “backside”, made a lame TV appearance, in disguise, sharing his technique. This ended up being memorialized on Youtube. That, in my mind, was a punishment that far exceeded the so-called crime. </p>

<p>I support and respect, and in several cases have become very good friends with my children’s teachers. I’m definitely not on a teacher witch-hunt. Coming off the heels of the devastating tragedy at VT, I personally question the mindset of this group of adults who used a camp prank, learning experience, drill (not sure how it’s being defined) to scare a group of sixth graders in the name of fun.</p>

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<p>IMHO this drill, prank or whatever other spin it gets labeled as is not just a lack of judgment but absolutely inexcusable. Unfortunately we no longer live in the world of the Cleavers but now live in a society where kids as young as those on the field trip think nothing of killing a classmate over a dirty look, a coveted pair of sneakers, or anything else. If these eleven year olds truly thought this was a prank as it was unfolding, then they’re more naive than they should be. The news is flooded with so many acts of violence nowadays that I can not believe that the kids thought this was funny - my guess is they were scared stiff and put on a good face afterward so as not to be teased. </p>

<p>I too, live in the area where the high school art teacher permanently lost his job for something he did privately, on his own time, that hurt no one. (I personally thought the punishment was severe). How what these adults did is deserving of a lesser punishment is beyond me. We send our kids to school each day entrusing them to the administration’s judgment - and this school’s administration has failed their kids.</p>

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<p>Whatever happened to the scariest thing on a camping field trip being telling ghost stories by the campfire? That would be normal. This wasn’t.</p>

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<p>To me “mental anguish” is injury, even if it’s only temporary. Example: a teacher comes up and gives a student an “Indian burn” (twists the skin on some kid’s arm) as a joke, something one middle schooler might do to another. The burn hurts temporarily but then diminishes and there is no permanent mark or lasting pain. Is that injury? Yes. Is it lack of judgement? Yes. Should the teacher be fired for that? I think so. It’s egregious. There are some lapses of judgement that aren’t defensible. “Tricking” kids into thinking they are about to be shot is one of them. Mental anguish, fear. That’s more than a ghost story. End of story. (P.S. FF’s Boy Scout story is classic but it wouldn’t make news headlines around the world like this did… think about the reasons why.)</p>

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<p>Exactly…</p>

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<p>Do you know this? Did the teachers who conducted this idiotic prank know this? What if children had been injured in the scuffle to try to take cover unnecessarily? Did they know this wouldn’t happen, that nothing would happen, that this would turn out okay? Nope. That’s not an “error.” That’s flat out, as an ADULT, failing to consider the implications of your actions, when clearly there were implications. This is bad enough, but I take a harsher stand when people fail to consider the implications of their actions when they affect children. There is just no excuse here. IF no child is affected AT ALL emotionally, I would first of all be very surprised, and second of all that doesn’t mean anything if the potential was there as the lapse in judgement is just as egregious. I cannot even imagine what these people told themselves. </p>

<p>Because honestly I can’t imagine thinking about this…still thinking…thinking, hmm, this will probably end up POSITIVE. I honestly do not understand how someone could be so out of touch with reality to even consider that anything positive might come from this. That’s actually a fairly alarming level of delusion in my opinion. The nearest I can figure is that many people involved were unaware of what was actually going to go down. </p>

<p>From MSN:

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<p>I don’t think any child should think that they are going to die, laying on the floor with other children around crying because they think they are going to die, some of them probably away from their parents and relatives for the first time. I am not the kind of person who thinks the world is out to get them, and neither are my parents; in fact I usually do find reasons to defend schools and I believe most teachers are doing their best even if they don’t quite meet the lofty demands of some communities. But I don’t think any adult should ever put child through, for no reason, what these children are put through. If you have never been in a situation where you seriously thought you were going to die (I have, although it was a serious car accident) then it doesn’t matter that “nothing happened” and some people think it “wasn’t a big deal.” It still is. Today I still have issues with driving although I am a senior. And there’s no reason to subject a CHILD to it for no good reason. These children were spoken to not long after the incident - the adrenaline that goes through your body affects your immediate response. So tell me it doesn’t affect some of them in a year when the time comes for another fun class trip where maybe this time the adults will actually conduct themselves in a professional manner, and they do not want to go because of their last experience. Tell me that an 11 year old laying on the ground crying, away from their parents, thinking they are going to be shot is not a big deal. Because that’s a pretty big deal to me. There is no way I would want MY child subjected to such treatment because someone thought it was clever (they should be ashamed), and so I am angry that ANYONE’s child was subjected to it. Of course they are angry! I find it ludicrous that there would even be any question about there being anger. This is an absolutely ridiculous situation. </p>

<p>And like I said, I would be willing to move on and forgive them if they handled it appropriately, but at the first mention that it “wasn’t a big deal” and “no one was really hurt”, my patience would be pushed way too far. There’s almost no adequate response to such a lapse in judgement, but I would be willing to accept that they simply did not realize it would get so out of control if they recognized the magnitude of their mistakes afterwards. However I saw the vice principal claiming it was a “learning experience” for the children and that they used it as a discussion point. Wow, after you terrorized them, good way to inspire productive discussion. The means really justifies the ends, doesn’t it, that’s a pretty Machiavellian approach to education there. They need to admit their mistakes, to the children and the parents, apologize, have a new discussion about how playing with emotions and crying wolf is wrong. The school system needs to follow up on any initial evaluation of children who were particularly disturbed. They need to allow the children to discuss their reaction to the events in an open environment where the adults involved aren’t defensive. They need to let the children know they will not subject any more of their peers to this treatment. They need to explain that what they did was in poor taste considering the current climate in the US and that “jokes” about gun violence are taken very seriously. In that respect they have failed to educate these children.</p>

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<p><a href=“P.S.%20FF’s%20Boy%20Scout%20story%20is%20classic%20but%20it%20wouldn’t%20make%20news%20headlines%20around%20the%20world%20like%20this%20did…%20think%20about%20the%20reasons%20why.”>quote</a>

[/quote]
Actually, I’m having a hard time making this distinction. Why is FF’s story “classic” while this event rates an outpouring of outrage?</p>

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<p>I would disagree with the word “classic”
I do remember a time- before deaths of children at the hands of their abusive parents, or by classmates or strangers on the evening news wasn’t just uncommon but unheard of.</p>

<p>Now there are several events a year of mass slayings on school grounds, and many more local events of violent deaths of children, that many children are aware of, either from watching the news or reading the papers</p>

<p>Still when I remember “pranks” the only one I can recall was when I was on a Girl scout overnight at age 11 with my troop. Evenings consisted of songs, skits and ghost stories. I don’t remember if it just was a troop leader going to the outhouse, or if they were intentionally trying to scare us, but I vividly remember being quite startled to see someone outside the window after dinner.
However, there was no indication that we were in “danger” no talk of “killing”.</p>

<p>I suspect stories like the “Golden Arm” or the “monkey Paw” have fallen out of favor when the nightly news is so much more frightening.</p>

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<p>Beautifully articulated, Princedog.</p>