Certain schools pride themselves on the size and scope of their Greek community. As an example the self proclaimed largest Greek community…
“The University of Alabama has held the coveted honor of being the largest fraternity and sorority community in the nation with regard to overall fraternity and sorority membership.”
And unfortunately abuses still apparently persist…
While it doesn’t mean I would rule out schools such as this, it should certainly be a consideration.
It appears for certain schools a significant portion of social life is centered around Greek life…
Hard to have a complete conversation about Greek college life and not include the “largest fraternity and sorority community in the nation”. In my opinion if students are going to be told to have reservations about schools like Dartmouth based on this tragedy then certainly all schools with large Greek communities and histories of tragedies should come with similar concerns raised.
But I think that when they asked about hazing and 73% said they’d experienced it, each student got to decide what hazing was to them. That’s why I’m asking if all students were asked or only Greek members. If someone had asked my niece, she might have replied that yes, she’d experienced hazing because of a song, skit, joke night, etc. We had an issue once with a girl who didn’t like our joke night, and we never did one after that. 50 or so of us liked it and thought it was fun, but after one complained we stopped.
We did the same in my sorority. My friends and I still sing our sorority songs at our annual girls trips. The experience would not have been the same without it. There was never alcohol at any of our pledging nights, but we did have to sing to be let into the house. The definition of hazing these days pretty much covers anything other than mundane sisterhood events, like bowling. My older daughter’s sorority was on probation for a semester because they dressed up in cat costumes for a sisterhood event (literally just tails pinned to pants and cat-ear headbands). Someone from their national flew in and interviewed the whole sorority about whether they felt coerced into wearing the cat-ear headbands - ridiculous.
My younger daughter’s sorority is on probation because one of their new members drank too much on her own accord (and was taken to the campus medical center), in her own off-campus apt and there happened to be another sorority member present at the apt. It was not a sorority event and there were no other sorority members there.
This U Maine study is considered the seminal hazing study. New hazing studies are compared to this one, as a baseline.
The study was large:
The study is based on survey responses from 11,482 post-secondary students on 53
campuses across the United States and more than 300 interviews with staff and students from 18 of those campuses. It is the most comprehensive examination of student hazing to date.
Surveyed students were involved in many organizations. The study used the standard definition of hazing: “Hazing is any activity expected of someone joining or participating in a group that humiliates, degrades, abuses, or endangers them regardless of a person’s
willingness to participate.”
Figure 1. Percent of students in each activity that experienced at least one hazing behavior.
An entire department or team has roasts, joke lunches, team building exercises involving “just joking around”. Someone complains. Everyone pushes back- “it was just a joke”. HR and management get involved. So everyone pushes back some more. Etc.
In every case I’ve been involved in, the “just joking around” turns out to be sexual harassment of one or more team members, an ethnic/racial/religious slur which is not appropriate for the workplace, or some form of offensive and personal gaslighting of a particular individual (often not the person who complained).
I think normalizing the “we were just joking” behavior in college is part of the problem. You and your family routinely make fun of a member’s physical appearance- big bust, large derriere? That’s fine, your home, your rules. But once you get to college, you need to learn the rules of the road- especially if you are going to hold down a job. You will be working with people of different religions and races; people who look different; people with disabilities. Learning NOT to offend people on a regular basis is part of a college education.
I don’t get the whole “it isn’t hazing if someone doesn’t end up dead in a river” POV. But I see it in the workplace very frequently.
Totally agree with this, and I’ll offer one of the reasons DH and I were appalled at the thought of our son attending a service academy.
Perhaps it’s not exactly hazing when the entire class is subject to the brutality, but Plebe year at USMA is actually referred to as a haze. To avoid strict penalties, Plebes must (always) walk with cupped hands, hug the walls, look straight ahead, speak only when spoken to, gather up the trash and laundry of upperclassmen, and memorize Bugle Notes (the manual of plebe knowledge, a lengthy collection of traditions, songs, poems, anecdotes, and facts about USMA, the Army, the Old Corps, and the rivalry with Navy) as well as the week’s meal service to be able to perfectly repeat to any upperclassman on demand. This on top of the mandatory head shave and six weeks of “Beast” that includes mask removal in an active gas chamber. Little sleep, no showers, no free time, meals in packets, and constant in-your-face yelling add to the charm.
The modern Army now has a zero-tolerance policy on any conduct that is abusive, oppressive, or harmful to morale, but Plebe year is designed to break cadets down so they can be rebuilt over the next three years into proper officers. So, I guess one could argue that most of this hazing is done with a purpose, but it sure doesn’t feel that way while it’s happening.
And read the accounts of the Green Beret/Special Forces members who have dropped out (or been dropped) for even more chilling details. To a layperson it’s a little scary. Hugs to your family-- must have been some tough conversations in your house. But if kind and moral kids like your son don’t choose to serve… we end up with the brutes and the sociopaths. So thanks to your family for your service!
No, I’m pointing out that if we ever got to the point where the moral kids opted NOT to serve, who is left? The ones who would be on a power trip about having military grade weaponry… You have misinterpreted my comment. My town has several kids now attending one of the academies, or doing their service post-academy, and you could not find a more worthy cohort.
The grad student two months ago died by suicide. Both are tragic, and as you say it is not a huge school. Just wanted to clarify that the events are unrelated.
Absolutely. Agree 100 percent. But the kids I know whose frats have been put on notice or suspended or whatnot have a tendency to remind folks “it’s not like anyone died”. And then the fact finding begins… nobody died. But downing ten jello shots and then running across campus barefoot often lands someone in the ER. And then the spiral of blame…why is a 19 year old drinking vodka jello shots in quick succession? It’s a “tradition” for pledges. Maybe a tradition which needs to end?
Civil lawsuit against the Frat at the national level. And put the “people involved” in prison. Civil suit against the university. The only way to get attention is to attack the wallets of those who enable it.
Maybe if national fraternities sued the local affiliates that were doing the hazing, and not just when it hits the news, then maybe I’d be more inclined to believe that the national organizations want hazing to stop.
“If the national fraternity thinks that the behavior of the Phi Kappa Alpha members was so bad that it has caused damage to the national fraternity — and as a result, they’re going to pursue a civil lawsuit against the individual chapter members — that would be a first, as far as I know,” he said. “It would be an interesting thing to do.”
The problem with just kicking them off the campus (UVA) is that they will still operate. It’s just an attempt by the universities to absolve themselves from liability by claiming the fraternity was not officially recognized and sanctioned by the university.
Many universities have unrecognized Greek chapters that continue to operate. In some cases, alumni buy their houses if the national org discontinues support. In other cases they change one of the “letters” of their name to go from a national organization to a local, unregulated one.
The civil lawsuit is an interesting angle. I also believe the universities have to put their money where their mouth is and withhold degrees for any students involved in hazing (even withholding the degree while investigations are in process).
Agree. This is why I think Washington and Lee’s approach is not a bad one. Instead of kicking Greek life off campus, they’ve put them in a bear hug, with much more oversight than other universities (and with a zero tolerance policy towards hazing).
Also, would make the point that it seems like hazing can go on with other groups too – sports teams, marching band etc. So vigilence is needed in several places!
At the end of the day if a group of adult students wants to socialize at a private house off campus with no affiliation or privileges from the school, isn’t that their right? What could the school do about it? Presumably nothing.
I would be curious if the university could get away with expelling or withholding degrees from everyone at a private organization where the org was caught in a hazing scandal. I imagine their families would lawyer up and it would be hard to enforce for the students no directly implicated in having facilitated the underage drinking or breaking any other laws.
