The OP did not mention anything about student loans. There are not student loans in this equation, unless the OP marries someone with student loans.
The OP stated he would support his sons choice. The OP never stated what he could afford or how he was going to pay for it.
In addition, Miami, like many posters, has good advice when she suggests considering loans and potentially lower paying career choices.
The father is concerned with his sons desire for a potentially low paying profession. Miami is stating one potential reason why she agrees with his concern.
Stating the obvious. People understand that someone paying for an expensive undergrad may wince if the student is, at present, exploring what may not be the parents’ first choice in career plans, or what may not appear to be a well paying career. The discussion of “paying huge student loans” is not relevant here, as the OP did not mention anything about needing to take out loans, and therefore the concern about it taking a lifetime to pay of is irrelevant.
And as many also know, students change their mind all the time, change their major, or may start out in one career and end up in another. Most people don’t get to start out as president of a company. Many start low and work up. Many majors, not just art, may not easily lead to a lucrative career path. His son is, at present, exploring one that will provide a reasonable income, with benefits and time off to travel. How many of us know students who have come out of college and are not as fortunate, perhaps working in the service industry while pursuing other things.
The OP said he would support his “choice”, but it sounds, from reading this:
like perhaps he is supporting the choice of schools, not necessarily his choice of majors/careers. Both of my kids changed their majors. Happens all the time. IMO the OP (who posted a whopping twice and has not returned) should take a deep breath as the choice of major may or may not stay the same. He started out by saying he and his son don’t have the best relationship. IMO, that’s where the effort should be placed at present. That can have longer lasting effects. Fix that. Then worry about the college major.
Timed out before last thought: Even if there were loans involved (though there was no mention of such) most would probably be the parents’, not the student’s, so this would not be a heavy burden on the student, as what the student can borrow is limited. Federal student loans would cap at $27K. One financial expert whose opinion I respect said not to take out more in student loans than one could reasonably expect to earn their first year out of college. Most first year teaching jobs will easily meet this criteria.
Since OP has not come back, hard to know what the real concern is. But you are correct Jym, if it is just student loans. I got the impression the parent was not comfortable spending big bucks on an elite school with this major so figured there is some concern about money.
Right, mom2and. The OP said this:
. We don’t know the dad’s budget, but there is commonly a big difference between ability to pay and willingness to pay. Regardless, it isn’t the student’s loan burden.
Regardless of the OP’s real story, it’s pretty common advice for parents AND students to avoid large loans, and to attend a college that is affordable to the family, whether through merit or need-based aid, careful planing, 529-type savings plans, scholarships, etc. There’s a pretty big gap between funding an epxensive school though gigantic loans and full pay. And only on CC would a combined income of $140K/yr be considered low-income. While not all beginning teachers make that kind of money (most, I’d guess), in the example given, who said anything about huge loans on the part of both husband and wife needing to be paid off? Uh-no one.
It’s also been stated more than once that there are grants and low-interest loans specifically for teaching students. These could make a difference for a kid who might need just such a loan to go to a private school vs. state college, or OOS vs in-state.
The OP was complaining about the kid’s MAJOR at an expensive school because he doesn’t feel such a major deserves an expensive education. The real discussion should be what he can afford to pay REGARDLESS of major. If he refuses to finance a “bad” major at all, he should lay that out and take the hit when his kid becomes even more distant from him.
Right. Somehow this conversation has veered from a dad who thinks that his son, who he describes as a “genius” has a current expressed career interest that he isn’t too keen on, and, in his words “to make matters worse” ( it isn’t so bad, really) he is ostensibly being intrigued by an OOS public school school because of a glossy brochure (we don’t know that- that’s just the dad’s flip comment). The other stuff is more conjecture.
Dear OP, this is really more about you than about your son or about any of the financial concerns. You are projecting your fears and your insecurities on him, and perhaps you have done this all of his life - thus, the state of your relationship with your child who is about to leave on his own grand adventure in about 12 months.
Clearly, your son is getting something from that art teacher that he does not get from you - encouraging words, an encouraging expression - and who would not gravitate towards that and want more and make the emotionally-based conclusion that getting more of that unconditional support in life will come from following that same path into teaching high school art.
You already committed to supporting your son go to college. Now, perhaps you did so without considering the financial implications. It’s ok to say to your son “you know, I made a promise that I have discovered I cannot keep because it was based on total ignorance … I want to support you as you head to college but here’s the reality when it comes to money … and this has nothing to do with your choice of degree … if you were going into engineering, I would still have to break my promise because, as it turns out, I cannot afford such an open-ended promise after all.” Apologize and then commit to helping your son find ways to achieve his dreams within the parameters of your ability to financially support him.
If your intent was to finance his education fully, then I am not sure why it would matter whether he chose a more lucrative career (unless you planned on moving in with him during your own retirement.) If you are paying for it all, who cares about his ultimate income? If your intent was for him to go to an expensive, prestigious college, but you expected him to take out all of the loans, then that really was not your decision to make. If you expect him to finance an expensive education, then you better sit down with him and help him understand the cost of college financed by debt and give him the choice. If he’s paying for it, then who cares what you think (I paid my way through school and never consulted my parents about anything - why would I? I paid the bills.)
But really, as others have noted, your focus should be on trying to improve your relationship as much as you can over the next twelve months. Fill these months with positive, loving memories with your son. It’s not too late to begin to build a better relationship. Start now to build a relationship with your son that will take him into adulthood knowing that his dad has his back.
I would highly recommend that you take the opportunity when you can to record yourself talking to your son, so you can hear the voice that your son hears when he shares his plans with you. If at all possible, find a way to get your facial expressions on film so you can see the face that your son sees when he talks with you. Do you remember how you would look at your son when he was an infant or young boy? I am assuming that your face was open and excited and so glad to see him, maybe you even did goofy faces. How long has it been since you looked at your son that way? Maybe you don’t feel adorable, but surely you found your son adorable and you made it known to him that you adored him, didn’t you? That might have been many years ago, and as life has kept you busy, you have not been able to look at him in that way very often, especially as you apparently project your own issues onto him. It’s time for more goofy faces that say “you’re my son, I adore you, I am so glad you are my son, and whether you teach art or work on Wall Street, I adore you no matter what” rather than more worried, discouraging faces that say “I really don’t think you can make it out there, and you’re wasting what I perceive to be your potential, and I cannot handle it if you fail, because then that means I have failed and I fear failure.”
Go back to those days when you were helping your son learn how to walk. Did you cheer him on, even though you knew he could fall down at any minute? All parents do this - we cheer on our kids as they take steps and fall and get back up and attempt more steps and fall again. We do this for our kids when they are toddlers, and how do our kids respond? With some of the most gleeful expressions ever, even as they fall down constantly. Why do we stop doing this for them when they are older? Cheer your son. If you need to break your promise, then apologize and then be realistic about how you can help with financing his college. Give him the financial parameters, and then leave all of the rest to him. All of it - school choices, applications, choice of major, choice of college classes, etc. Even if you think he might fall. Put on that fearless face even if you are filled with fear and insecurity. And just have fun this next year. Don’t be jealous of his relationship with the art teacher. Just be his dad - no art teacher can ever take your place - and do what you can to let him know how awesome these last 18 years have been, that you would not have traded it for the world, and that you find him adorable, and that you adore him.
@blueskies2day I understand dad has an opinion and of course he is entitled to one. I give both my kids my honest opinion, but ultimately, it is my kids’ decision on what to major in even though my DH and I are paying. I raised my kids to be independent thinkers and to take charge of their education and what they want their outcomes to be. No matter how much I may want to control things, it’s not my job to do so. Raise them right, give them wings and let them fly. Obviously kids need to think about employability, about the cost of college vs. intended career, and we as parents can help them think things through and lay out a plan.
<<the op="" was="" complaining="" about="" the="" kid’s="" major="" at="" an="" expensive="" school="" because="" he="" doesn’t="" feel="" such="" a="" deserves="" education.="" real="" discussion="" should="" be="" what="" can="" afford="" to="" pay="" regardless="" of="" major.="" if="" refuses="" finance="" “bad”="" all,="" lay="" that="" out="" and="" take="" hit="" when="" his="" kid="" becomes="" even="" more="" distant="" from="" him.="">>
^so true @sseamom
Goodness, people throw around the word “genius” pretty easily these days.
80 percent of student change their majors at least once. Less than 30 percent work in the field of their major. If he were opting for a conservatory where he only took art classes all day, sure, as a parent, I’d be concerned and not particularly interested in paying for that. However, he wants to be an art teacher which means he’s going to have a well rounded education even if his major is art.
Public school Art teachers in our county generally teach multiple subjects and they tend to get paid pretty well They get some nice vacation time or at least a few months where they can add on additional money through teaching summer school or a seasonal job. They get to be there for their families. They inspire kids. They broaden horizons. They allow for out-of-the-box thinking. There are worse things your son could do with his life.
Set your budget. Decide whether you will fund a conservatory, a B.F.A or not. Let your kid know the parameters before he starts applying. Then, let it go. You said you don’t have a good relationship with him… well, if you want to make it worse, tell him he CAN’T be an art teacher. Then you will be setting him up to PROVE you wrong no matter what.
On the student loan issue. If the son goes into teaching there are loan forgiveness programs that he might participate in. Also, he could benefit from public service loan foregiveness program which foregives loans of borrowers working in the public sector.
OP, as luck would have it, DS also got a 34 on the ACT (first try also). That’s fine, so his focus going forward will be on his portfolio, essays, etc., and we are hoping against hope that he gets into RISD. Since I can barely draw a stick figure, I’m impressed by what comes naturally to him.
He considered for a while going into engineering, but we talked about it and his heart wasn’t into it. Maybe some day down the road he’ll combine the talents.
How about architecture, ixnay?
@jym626, architecture might be in the cards, it seems to be a popular choice with various aunts and uncles. For right now, graphic design is top of the pile, but I’ve seen minds change a lot during senior year and first year of UG.
When he was discussing engineering, he seemed almost resigned to it. He was faking enthusiasm. I’ll give my wife a lot of the credit for seeing through the facade, and we feel that he dodged a bullet. Who knows where he’ll end up; there’s a perverse drawback to being talented in a number of things.
@IxnayBob, I can identify with a son excelling where you don’t. I almost flunked Algebra 2, even with a tutor. Our son got a 5 on the Calculus BC AP exam as a junior. To make his Dad feel good he makes D’s in English (although he got a 4 on the AP).
D grade often means disqualification of that course from meeting a college’s requirements or expectations of “4 years of English” and such.
I would encourage the in state school if he is interested in being an art teacher. Make sure he understands what kind of salary he can expect, what the job market is like. It’s his life not yours. And I would discuss with him what his backup plan is in case he cannot get that job. I like the idea of a minor in math or something in case he is not able to get a teaching position in art.
Teachers in our area are not terribly well paid but they actually make more than many people with a bachelor’s in science in our area and they get many perks–that long vacation, job security. Aside from the difficulty of getting the job, I don’t see it being a bad option.
Actually, one of my kids’ science teachers left a job in science to become a science teacher.
Wow, Chesterton, outstanding.
Joining late here, but (1) so many career plans that people have in high school don’t pan out, and (2) so often people change career tracks pretty often early on, so even if he ends up becoming a high school art teacher, he’ll likely end up doing something else longer-term, so I would still go for the expensive college.
I would pay for the expensive college then only if he maintains about a 3.5 GPA and I would make that clear to him. (The result of having that type of GPA would be that lots of doors to other careers should open for him.)
I don’t see a problem with being a high school art teacher if that’s what he really wants to do. I have one childhood friend who does it and she’s very happy and is a very fine person. (My parents would not have allowed that for me, however.)