Help me choose: Duke vs Georgetown vs Wake Forest (Full Ride) for History

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Hello everyone! I wanted to first thank all of you who have guided me through the application process. Through my countless sleepless nights, your endless replies have helped guide me towards a very satisfying end to the application cycle!

That being said, I have a good conundrum: which college to choose!

I am an incoming history major planning to concentrate in French/European history at these universities. Thankfully, financial aid is not a problem, and all 3 are affordable for my parents, along with some smaller scholarships to counter the brunt of paying said tuitions. I understand that my decision will mainly come down to my feel of each school, but I wanted to hear the CC’s community’s thoughts on each college, in terms of their prospective pros and cons. I plan on doing graduate school (most likely Masters/PhD or Law) if that makes a different, and I am a NC resident.

That being said, here are some brief summaries of what I think about each university!

Georgetown: My top pick from day 1. Been dreaming about this school from a while and it was exciting to get in. The professors perfectly match what I want to study, and I’ve already made connections in the department with the director of UG studies and my favorite professors. Met several students, already have friends who go here, know the campus inside out. No question this is my top pick and personal favorite. Downside is less prestigious and lower ranked than Duke, and considering cost of living and transportation I’d pay slightly more than Duke for a degree which is ‘worth’ less on the grand scheme of things. DC is a great city and you can’t beat that: I want to intern at the museums and there’s tons of opportunities for history majors, also would love to get involved politically as my secondary focus is educational policy.

Duke: Great school, didn’t think I was getting in. Highly ranked, very prestigious, carries a great name. Beautiful campus, more ‘neglected’ history department from what I’ve heard, but they also have great professors who relate to some degree of my personal studies. Would love to do the dual History/Public Policy program at the Sanford school – it’s highly ranked and has a great faculty. Location isn’t too bad, I’d be close to my family and friends. Carolina weather is great, and sports are amazing.

Wake Forest: Amazing school, didn’t think I’d be considering attending here though. Don’t know much about the school. Has a good history department but mainly concentrates in American history. They have a Venetian professor who has a tiny focus on Napoleon, not too intersecting with my own studies. The full ride is great: 4k a year plus a 15k 4 year stipend for research, along with the best meal plan, etc. Lots of personalized support for me. Downside is location and prestige, not as highly regarded as the other two universities but carries a strong regional name. Bonus points for my Girlfriend and Brother both going here. I like Winston but limited opportunities for a history major. They have good study abroad programs and a DC campus, but that’s negated by Georgetown’s location and Duke’s foreign study programs.

All together, they’re three great options I’m all seriously considering. Obviously I lean more towards Georgetown and I expect many of the comments to back up Georgetown as well, considering my affiliation with it and my close connection to the University. However, I have not had the same opportunities to connect with faculty and staff at the other respective universities as I have had at Georgetown, let alone have I visited Duke or Wake Forest. I would love to hear your thoughts.

Thank you once again for your guidance and wisdom CC, love you guys! I’ll answer questions as time permits, but feel free to look at my old posts for more information about myself.

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These are all great choices.

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If you want to go to Gtown and you can afford it, I wouldn’t hesitate.

If it’s going to impact your families financial security, then Wake but you say it won’t.

If I could go free vs. $90K, i’d go free.

Good luck.

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How do the course offerings and faculty research interests in the history department of each school align with your particular focus area of history? You may also want to check for offerings in other departments (e.g. other social sciences, French literature).

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Agreeing with ucbalumnus that if you think you are interested in a specific area of history you should look at the faculty, major requirements, and course offerings for each school. Not just the catalog but what is being offered each semester. Of course you will want (and the major will require) some breadth but if you want to focus on French/Euro you might find complementary courses in the French department (assuming this is your language), English, etc. If you decide to pursue graduate school in history you should keep your language skills at a high level. And look for possible research opportunities in the humanities. These are all great schools, good luck with your decision.

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Georgetown.

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Congratulations on having multiple great options to consider! I reviewed some of your previous threads and have a few questions:

Is this still true?

Is this still true?

Any updates on this?

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Thank you Austen, I remember you from my old posts. Glad you could keep up with me. Thanks for the questions.

  1. Not necessarily. But cost isn’t an issue, and yes they have saved up a lot for college.
  2. Yes, but that has also changed. If I go to Georgetown I will most likely follow a BA/MAH/PhDH to become a history professor. Duke will be a more conventional BA → JD pathway. I am not considering ROTC at the moment, but the internships in the DC area such as the French embassy and the Smithsonians are still weighing into my decision.
  3. Yes, reached out and had a discussion and decided not to finish my ROTC Scholarship application.
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Will do, planning on Minoring or at least taking some French classes to up my level on an academic level.

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I’m confused -

At one school you’ll go to PhD to be a professor. At the other, a JD.

Why would they be different?

That said, you are 17 - not only do you not need to answer now, in reality - you can’t - even if you think you could. You just can’t know.

The answer is - if all are affordable - that you should go to Georgetown. That’s where you’ve been focused all along.

It’s a history degree and there really isn’t “pedigree” that matters amongst these three.

But - while you say all are affordable, you do mention a Masters and JD - so how will you pay for those?

If let’s say Gtown is $50K (I don’t know the price) but your parents couldn’t afford further schooling, then Wake might make sense - so that you can use the savings to pay for the next level of school.

The reality is - in most cases, you’re heading to a world of a low paid position - for example, a History Professor.

So while you should choose your preferred affordable school, you should look past four years - to ensure finances are intact.

Thanks

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It is clear that your family is willing and able to pay for four years at any of these schools without any loans. When you expressed an intention to pay back every dollar to your family, was that something that you thought of and want to do, or is it something that your parents thought of and want you to do? It’s important that you and your parents are crystal clear on expectations regarding any possible repayments, even if it’s an informal arrangement with nothing signed. Family relationships can be damaged when there are different expectations of what the “plan/deal” was, and I don’t want that to be the case for you and your family. And $400k is a big number in terms of whether repayment is expected or not expected.

This is also very confusing to me. I still don’t understand why which college you pick will determine your career pathway. If you are interested in entering academia, I would do significant research on the job market, particularly for those in the humanities and social sciences. Also tagging @Shelby_Balik whose perspective you may find valuable.

Whether you want to go on for a PhD or a JD, I think you will be extremely well-positioned from any three of the schools.

  • If your parents intend to gift you your undergraduate education (and if they intend to gift you your graduate education if that ends up being law school), it sounds like Georgetown is your favorite, and that’s where I would enroll.

  • If your parents are willing to gift you $400k for your education (i.e. 4 years of undergrad and $0 for grad, or $0 for undergrad + $300k for law school and some leftover), then I would give Wake Forest some very serious thought. I would not think about the costs of a PhD program (from which you would earn a Master’s on the way), because if you don’t get into a funded PhD program, then you should not go for a PhD.

  • If your parents intend to loan you the money for your education, then I would give an extremely good look at Wake-Forest.

As I already mentioned, all three schools are excellent. A gift of $400k (or more) is an extraordinarily generous gift. A loan of $400k, however, is an extraordinarily large loan and will be very burdensome to pay off.

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If you decide to attend WFU, make sure to take History 162.

Based on your intended area of study, did you consider University of St. Andrews in Scotland or William & Mary or the combined program ?

In the eyes of many, Georgetown is just as prestigious as Duke.

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Congratulations on several amazing options.

With Georgetown starting to accept the common application any perceived prestige gap (not that there really is one) will likely further disappear as Gtown’s acceptance rate will decline and approach Duke’s.

They are very much peer institutions but the schools feel very different on campus. Hopefully you have experienced both.

Career wise one alternative to being a HS History teacher is becoming the CEO of a large investment bank like these two former history majors


I would not consider yourself locked into a low paying future by virtue of a humanities major from one of these schools. Good luck.

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And it’s not as if the third choice (Wake) is some lowly-ranked institution.

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Since @AustenNut tagged me, I’ll chime in. I’m a history professor so I can comment a little on your academic and career goals.

First off – each of these universities has an outstanding history department. The departments at Duke and Georgetown are truly world-class (whoever told you the Duke history department is “neglected” has no idea what they’re talking about). Wake Forest’s department is also excellent, but is smaller and perhaps has a little less breadth. However, at Wake Forest, your professors’ attention will be less divided between grad students and undergrads. So there’s a tradeoff. So if you were deciding on major alone, go with your gut and attend the school where you fit best. Congratulations on having fantastic choices.

This (above) is the part that makes no sense to me. Why would you follow a different path depending on which school you attend, when you can follow either one from any school? One school is not going to prepare you for one career any better than another (unless there are specific opportunities and resources that are much stronger in one school than the others – but there aren’t). In any case, I think it’s too soon to chart these kinds of paths before you even get to school (for the record, I did not decide to go back for a Ph.D. until I was several years out of college, because that’s where my interests and career trajectory led me). You’re a senior in high school – majors change, career interests change. You don’t even know what you don’t know about the possibilities that lay before you. So leave the pathway open and see what new opportunities you discover along the way.

@AustenNut was absolutely right about the job market for humanities and social sciences Ph.D.s. It is, to put it very mildly, a bloodbath, and it’s unlikely to change any time soon. I would never counsel students at this point to pigeonhole themselves into a narrow path toward an academic career. That’s partly because students at your stage don’t really understand what an academic career entails, and they have very little chance of landing a tenure-track position – much less in a desirable location, at the kind of institution where they want to teach. Leave the possibility open, but see what other opportunities a history degree can open for you (and there are a lot, especially coming from schools like the ones you’re considering). If, at the end of college, you simply cannot imagine doing anything else but a history Ph.D., then take steps in that direction. But even then, I recommend grad programs that offer advising that equips students to follow alternate career pathways.

For now, think about what resources would strengthen a history program (and, more importantly, an overall undergrad experience) for you. You mentioned interest in museum studies and public history – so if one of these history programs (or universities) has an especially good track record in hooking up students with relevant internships and projects, that’s great. Someone upthread suggested you look at relevant complementary programs in language and cultural studies. That’s also a good idea. But mostly it’s about fit. Chances are high you either change your major (because that’s just what people do once they expose themselves to new areas of study), so pick the school, not just the history department. Sounds like you feel especially at home at Georgetown. If so, great choice!

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Agree.

OP: Give serious consideration to WFU on a full tuition plus scholarship as law school is expensive and pay for a PhD student/history prof is quite low.

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I’ll echo you can’t go wrong here, and that you should perhaps not try too hard to script out your whole life right now. Pick a college you are excited to attend for now, and that your family can comfortably afford, and be open to changing a lot in college. Indeed, it would be a real shame if that wasn’t even possible.

I also want to just offer a couple comments on both Georgetown and Wake Forest as I think these colleges are maybe a bit misunderstood by those who put a lot of faith in the US News rankings. I don’t want to say underrated, because that implies there is an objective rating system available and US News is just getting it wrong. But I do think the US News rankings fail to capture how US professional and indeed upper class families tend to view these colleges.

Georgetown is basically in not just one but two special categories. One special category is it is widely seen as the top Jesuit college in the US. This means more or less nothing to some people, definitely not US News, but to some people this is an extremely important observation, because they have a lot of respect for the Jesuit approach to college.

Georgetown is also widely seen as the top college in DC. Again, some people don’t care, but some people think that is very important. Sometimes that is because of its many connections to the halls of power, and that is no small thing if your interests take you in that direction (which, again, they might). But DC is also, say, a very important museum city, an important international city even outside of government circles, and so on. So there is a lot to say for going to DC’s most prominent college.

OK, then Wake also has a bit of a special status in various circles. This is a bit complex, but Wake is one of those research universities that is nonetheless known for being relatively undergrad focused. I think of these colleges as almost being like a half step between LACs and universities, which for some people would make them not what they are really looking for, but for others it is hitting a real sweet spot. Just to give you an idea, I think of Dartmouth as being another college like that. Also William & Mary. And a few others maybe, but not so many at this level of prominence.

And actually, interestingly I think these colleges are sort of cousins of Jesuit colleges in some ways, although obviously not the same in others.

OK, but then Wake also has what I will call a bit of a sporting country club vibe. Meaning for a college so focused on excellent undergrad teaching and such, it also has real competitive sports. And then a lot of students who come from pretty successful families. Actually kinda similar to Duke in that sense.

OK, so I think for some kids, Wake really resonates. And again, maybe not so much others. But my point is successful, well-connected families in the US know some kids are going to be picking Wake because for those kids it was a great fit.

Anyway, none of this tells you where you should go. And off hand, I agree unless cost was a bigger factor than you were suggesting, it should probably be Georgetown.

But seriously, you shouldn’t be at all concerned about things like US News rankings or such. You are beyond that, you are in the fortunate position of being able to choose a college based on what you really want in a college experience, without anyone who matters likely to question that choice in the future.

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I think duke is easily eliminated. If you’re ok with spending the money, choose Georgetown. Otherwise, take Wake Forest + the 400k you saved (think of it as those 2 choices);