Thanks for all the responses. I have read all of them and I appreciate every one of your suggestions.
You and your wife need to speak with a family counselor ASAP. This situation is more than you can handle.
Contract is only useful if you are willing to follow through with it. If you have never followed through with consequences while your son was growing up then there is no reason why he would take you seriously now.
D2 is living at home now because he wanted to save up money for law school in two years. While she lives at home she pays rent, her share of food, utilities and cleaning service. At the same time I subsidize her phone plan (family plan), health insurance, work clothes, etc.
A week ago she informed me she wanted to get her own apartment because she wanted her independence. I asked her to work it out on a spreadsheet to see if she could afford it. I also told her that since she was not going to save money for law school (she would have no money left after she paid for an apartment) then I wasn’t going to subsidize her or help her out with law school expenses in the future. More importantly, I was not going to be the guarantor for her apartment. I told her she had 30 days to move out if that was what she wanted.
D2 knew I meant what I said about 30 days to move out and me not helping her with law school expenses. I was not going help her if she wasn’t going to help herself. Growing up she has always seen me carry through with everything I said. No tantrum or crying ever changed my mind. She thought hard about it and realized it was an impulsive (and stupid) idea.
OP - I would come up with some conditions for you to pay for his education (GPA, number of credits). If he doesn’t meet the conditions then he would need to move out and pay for his next semester’s tuition. Even if he is going to school I would require him to work X hrs. I would not let him have use of your car if he doesn’t help out around the house. If he is not able to get to school or work without a car then it is just too bad, it is not your problem. If he should decide not to go to school then I would charge him rent, have him pay for some utilities or he could move out. If you are charging him rent then you should make sure you get it the first of month, not when he has some money.
I do think some tough love is called for here. It may be painful in the beginning, but In the long run, it will be better for him.
You can tell the therapist anything you want. The therapist just can’t tell you anything without permission from the client.
I wouldn’t encourage him to enroll in community college in the spring. I wouldn’t even mention it. I wouldn’t pay for the car but I would pay for health insurance.
My first reaction was substance abuse. If this kid had a scholarship before he flunked out, it sounds like something changed.
Some people self medicate. If I were in your shoes, I would link the first set of consequences to a requirement that he get psychiatric treatment (and stick with it) and perhaps drug testing.
I have personally known 3 kids who followed a similar pattern (all HYPS students) who were ultimately diagnosed with bipolar disorder. For all of them, the symptoms and self medication began in college. I have also known kids who were just plain old knuckleheads (who also followed this pattern) and who needed more structure (and some therapy ) to become responsible adults.
I’m sorry you’re going through this. I suspect there is s reason you haven’t come down too hard on him yet - perhaps some niggling sense that this behavior is linked to something deeper? Definitely get support for yourselves because whatever is going on, it’s going to require a lot of strength and willpower from you to address it.
This sounds like a kid who is really struggling. It must be hard having him living in the house while you may not know al of what is going on. If I were you I would not want to come down on him too hard, even when his actions seem destructive or inconsiderate.
ADHD can have some serious consequences. I think our culture sometimes trivializes it. Some young people who are very bright in so many other ways, face some really tough obstacles with ADHD.
I have no idea if you son failed because of ADHD, or drinking, or loss of motivation/depression. If I were you, I would want to find out, and maybe you have.
Regardless, I think support is the best approach. I think maintaining a relationship with our kids when they face difficulties, is the number one priority for safety and recovery. I would not take a punitive approach: it doesn’t work, it causes backlash, and he may not be safe if you kick him out.
I would have a heart to heart talk and treat him with respect, as an ally in facing a problem rather than an enemy or problem. I think it would be great if he could come to a decision not to attend school right now, on his own, rather than because you tell him no.
I imagine that one problem he faces is how to find a way to focus and work at something meaningful to him. What is his part-time job? I would encourage some kind of career counseling, on the job training, that kind of thing. Would he be interested in a certified nursing assistant program (Red Cross, one month)? Carpentry? Does he like cars? Computers? Is there a volunteer job that could lead to something (ER< EMT?)
Community colleges often have vocational type classes that help kids get jobs. I am not saying never go to 4 year college, but right now, decent work that means something to him could help him grow up and be happier.
Other suggestions: National Outdoor Leadership School (they have scholarships), which teaches wilderness skills and has rescued some families I know who were dealing with a situation like this. City Year. WOOF. I would try to help him find something that engages him positively.
It is certainly possible that either substance abuse or a mental health issue is involved here. But the frustration ADHD can create for a bright young person like this cannot be underestimated. Have you read any books about ADHD?
I am sure you have done a great job as a parent and love your son, and as someone who has been in your position, I know the temptation to assert control. But it really can backfire. Try to work with him as an ally, and you may see a change. Not promising, but worth a try.
Dear Compmom.
Thank you for your kind words.I have actually done a lot of psy/pysch reading and literature research and done extensive reading. I am actually an MD. When you are emotionally involved, it can be difficult to think objectively, the part of your brain that is a parent prevails. I have tried to “diagnose” him and then try to recommend treatment but all our efforts were rebuffed by him. I even tried to sit down with him twice a week to help him with organizational skills and planning at a mutually agreed neutral setting) (restaurant) near our home. After the first few meetings it ended up with him getting frustrated with the process.
Since then we have tried in very subtle ways to get him to seek help, he refused until lately when he agreed to see his current therapist that was recommended by his older sister who is a psychologist. This was after reading him the riot act. He only seems to responds to dire consequences.
We ( my wife and I) have also encouraged him to pursue something that he is passionate about and will support him.
Once again thanks.
It is a relief to discuss about this in a non clinical setting
Apparently he has somewhere to go, since he flouts the rules of his contract w his parents, and disappears for days at a time, incommunicado.
Because the parents consistently do not follow through with any of the consequences, the son knows he doesn’t need to comply with the parents’ terms for medical/professional treatment or with their house rules.
mokenny sending you a private message
Sent you a private message.
I went through something similar to your story last year when my son was a-freshman. Barely passing classes and was a straight A student in High School. Apparently trying different meds/drugs in College. He would not listen to us, was angry when we offered help and we were at our wits-end. We did get him tested this-past summer and has-some ADHD but decided not to treat with meds-due to his past drug history. He also had-a rough summer. He wrecked his-car and lost his childhood friends. Guess it took him to getting rock bottom that he turned his life around. He went back to school with the understanding this-was his last chance. He knew we meant business. Well we stuck by him and what a turn around. He is doing great in school, became a RA, no more drug use and he is now aware he almost ruined his entire life. So what I would tell you and your wife is to love him, let him make his mistakes but stick by him. I am sure when he gets the wake up call he will be glad you guys were helping him along.
Wow. I’m glad I didn’t have some of the people in this thread as parents! I was a screw up at the end of HS and stumbled into college (based on my SAT, definitely not my GPA or class ranking). Screwed up in college and eventually dropped out. The keyboard commandos here would have thrown me to the wolves at that point. Through all of my problems the ONE thing I knew was that my parents were behind me at all times, unconditionally. I don’t know where they found the patience.
Something has changed. A guy who used to have initiative and follow through has kinda…stalled.
Could be depression. Could be substances to self medicate depression. Could be something else entirely.
I had a good friend in high school who was a super competitive honor student, involved, top ten in our class…really nice guy, too, everyone loved him. Very creative, sensitive, and brilliantly intelligent. He suddenly decided to quit school. His parents took his car, halted all funding. He decided he wanted to hitch hike around the nation and write poetry. He just picked a direction and walked one day. Dude ate out of dumpsters, lived with the homeless, and came home two years later with a three legged cat named “Peggy”…and lived behind his parent’s house in a wigwam he built in the woods. Dude used mud to protect himself from mosquitoes, slept out there with a fire, let his hair get matted and weird…and wrote poetry. This is a guy whose parents were both college professors. Smart people. The whole thing was very shocking.
Fast forward twenty years. Somehow my family got stuck with the three legged cat (Peggy passed on a few years back), and my friend lives with a cult in Hawaii, hoping for an arranged marriage in the cult to a girl half his age. Yuck.
It’s been suggested he might have high functioning schizophrenia. Average onset for males is 18-24. Very cruel disease.
I’m not suggesting this is what’s going on with your son…just figured I’d share my friend’s story.
Some things that might help your son:
- Explore other careers. Maybe college isn't his thing, and he'd like to learn a trade instead? The world will always need plumbers, electricians, building contractors and hvac people.
- Give him some time off to think and figure out what's next...but not on your dime. See if he can take a summer job at a resort or state park...someplace where room and board are included in the wage,....think of it as a structured halfway....to living independently on his own dime (sort of). Lot of cool remote locations look for summer help that provide lodging. Would give you both some time to decompress, and if all goes well...he'll end up with a good reference.
- Job Corps. People 16-24 get a place to live and a job to do...to help build employable skills. Free of charge. Yes, it's gritty. Yes, it's essentially living on welfare in a dormitory of underprivileged kids and doing vocational training....but it is a viable humane option if you need him out of the house. It's not the street. It's sort of Job Boot Camp. He'll be fed. He'll get medical treatment if he needs it. He'll get a warm bed. He gets to be in charge of his choices.
- College isn't a punishment, it's a privilege. You earn college....you don't get forced to do it.
- Listen twice as much as you talk. Work on communication. Find out what happened to make college crumble the first time. Was he in the wrong program? Did he get his heart broken? Did he use substances? If so...why? Don't be judgemental. Listen and try to understand what went wrong.
Wishing you better times ahead. Good luck…to both of you.
It’s worth pointing out that adolescent brains are not fully developed at this time. He is getting older, but if he’s been struggling with a brain that’s not as developed as his peers, then he probably built up some other issues surrounding that natural problem.
- Adolescent brains--the frontal lobe--doesn't fully engage in youth until about age 25. The frontal lobe (simplifying) is the self-control lobe.
- If his peers are all on track from grade school to go to HYPS and he's dealing with a brain on track for later development, then he will suffer emotionally from not feeling adequate.
- Second thought: is he a visual-spatial thinker? They are often misdiagnosed with ADHD and other learning disabilities. They are often the "late bloomers" and bloom well after HS. I realize that he's late and not blooming still, but if his learning style has been different plus the frontal lobe not fully engaged, then this is going to cause emotional issues plus a feeling that he just will never fit in. Maybe research other learning types.
For our visual-spatial son he barely made it out of high school alive, no exaggeration, though bright and really trying. It was painful and as parents we felt lots of judgement about 1) what did we do to him to make him that way and 2) why weren’t we more disciplined with him to make him into the HYPS track child or even succeed somewhat during his school day. Both assessments were incorrect. He’s just different and the schools truly aren’t set up to welcome everyone.
Currently we have him on “rest” time and “judgement free” time for about 6 months now with the goal of helping him feel “safe” after 12 years of for him hell. He seems to be building his self-confidence. He’s also only 18. He’s in therapy and has other regimes to raise his spirits. He is also not prone to any substance issues. And we live in NYC so driving isn’t an issue. And as I said he is trying–with huge support, daily maintenance from parents. Different person from your son, but just letting you know that we do apply small contracts to shape small behaviors, with the idea that the small behaviors build his confidence to do more later. It’s worth stating again: the contracts are not punishment. They are shaping small behaviors to allow him to feel competent again in the world. This seems to be working. And when he succeeds ,then we are working together as a family to come up with the next shaping. He and us together without us dictating. We had to accept the fact that my lovely child may never go to college or have the usual path. That’s fine. Accept that. and figure things out from there. Just because lots of people go to high school and college and breeze through (and find success in the military for that matter) doesn’t mean everyone will or that they were meant to. There’s a big world out there. Many ways to fit in. If he’s been undervalued since K through 12 for his natural thinking style, he may have a lot of pain to work out and with no one explaining his (perhaps) different thinking style, he probably feels very very very alone.
We educate our child about his brain style. He’s visual-spatial and they are vastly overlooked during school. The US education system rewards other thinking styles. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recognizing-spatial-intel/
The psych world I doubt has tests for this, but they might and I would urge you to take a step back, before ADHD meds and labels of learning disabled, and figure out if a different learning style may be the cause. Also, knowing that he’s actually different (perhaps) might help you maybe rewrite your (guessing) confrontational relationship (natural with a situation like this). Start with, let’s figure out how you may fit into this world that’s different from most of the world’s expectations. Then provide ways for him to feel successful at home. Small things. Really small. Tiny. Then work up from there, building confidence in himself and confidence in his new relationship between you.
consistency is the key word. Good, bad or indifferent. If it’s a rule it’s a rule. There is no saving accounts for 5 atta boys to erase not being responsible. aka don’t get to high or to low.
Lastly don’t assume nothing and ask direct to the point questions. Starting with what is your relationship with alcohol and drugs.
What is his his part time job? How many hours a week?
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I’m not going to tell you what to do. I’m going to tell you what I did and what the result was.
My son at age 20 informed me he was not returning to college in the fall. He had not been kicked out but he had done poorly enough to essentially lose a semester and hadn’t informed me of the problems. He spent several weeks sleeping until 4pm and hanging out on my living room couch.
My son’s college problems clearly stemmed from ADHD-tendencies. He had As and C’s &D’s. He did really well at the classes that you would think would be most difficult (like an A in Chemistry) - and horribly at the courses that you would think would be easy. When he was bored or disinterested, he procrastinated - and that got the better of him.
I told him that he needed to find a a job. I told him that he could continue living at home for the remainder of the summer, but as of September 1, he either needed to be enrolled in college or have a paying job if he wanted to stay at home. Otherwise he had to find somewhere else to live.
I told him I would pay his tuition if he enrolled in college. (At that point the college option meant extension courses at the state u --the idea was he could take courses via the extension and later apply to transfer in as a regular student).
I told him I would continue to pay his health insurance. (This happened more than a dozen years ago, before ACA - an individual policy for a young man wasn’t too expensive in those days.)
He spent a couple of more weeks sleeping all day on the couch. One day in mid July he went out and got a job. Then a week later he got a promotion. Then it turned out that he loved his job … really, really loved his job.
He was planning on quitting the job to enroll in classes at the university, and in fact did quit the job, but on the very last day to sign up for courses, he went back and asked for the job back.
He got promoted again. Soon he was an “assistant director” responsible for managing a high-turnover staff of about a dozen or so. (They got paid mostly by commission and had quotas to meet, so new hires who couldn’t make quota wouldn’t last long. But it turned out my son was really, really good at that job and tended to be one of the best performers, week in and week out).
Turned out that the slacker kid was a lot better at managing his life when he was put in a position of responsibility, in a fast-paced, high-demand work environment.
After a couple of months he moved out of my house to move in with a female coworker. I hardly saw him for the next 3 years. He just was always busy at work. Then he went back to college, at a regional state U.-- which was all he could afford. (By then my offer to pay tuition had expired, as I had put a time limit on it – my younger child started college as a freshman the same year DS decided to return to college).
He did really well at college #2. Graduated, got a job in another state. Met a woman, became a father, married, divorced. Got laid off his job during the recession. Collected unemployment for awhile when his own son was a baby, then went to grad school full time for a 2-year master’s degree. Now is in his early 30’s, and has a steady job and great benefits with a state agency.
I’ve always felt that the toughest and best thing I ever did as a parent was to give son that ultimatum about moving out. It never occurred to me to charge him rent – I just didn’t want to see him laying around on my couch all day long every day. But other than that, the real thing he needed was growing up, and for him that was tied to employment in a position that he found to be challenging. I think it changed the way he viewed himself, and that was the key.
Again… no advice. My son is not your son. Just so you know that others have had similar experiences and things turned out pretty much o.k.
Just wondering in the course of discussions what the son’s plan is for his life, or potential plans. If he doesn’t have one, or can’t conceive of one, then many of the suggestions in this thread have been great. But it’s difficult to help him work toward a goal when that goal is unknown. Has the question been asked, “Where do you see yourself in five years?” Or two years. Or six months from now. If the answer is “I don’t know,” then presenting him with some options seems reasonable.
Good luck Mokenny, it’s very difficult to watch a family member struggle.
@mokenny , I am not any kind of authority at all and have hardly any knowledge, but I can tell you that if the psychiatrist your son is waiting to see is on your insurance, you might be better off paying out of pocket to see someone sooner. Apparently the good psychiatrists these days are not working through insurance. I don’t know why. I think this might be a case where it is worth paying more to get a good assessment.
If it’s any consolation, I wasn’t in quite the same position as your son, but I did spend three years at community college wasting time, dropping classes, and doing poorly in the classes I did take. I didn’t get serious about college until I was put on academic probation. Then I found something I really loved doing, which was travelling. So I worked, travelled, and went to school. It took me six years to get a degree. My parents were very patient and probably too fair. They never threatened to kick me out. I came to realize that I needed to go. I moved out for good when I was 24. Maybe if your son can find something he is really interested in doing, it will motivate him. I guess finding what that something is will be key. Good luck to you and your family. I know this is hard.
My heart goes out to you.
Certainly sounds like Executive Functioning issues.
We went through (and are still struggling with) a teen male with mental health issues and internet addiction. In our state, age of 13 is age of consent for mental health. It is very frustrating as a parent to be legally locked out of helping your child get help.
Sounds like you are taking all the steps you can. DO seek help for yourself and spouse. You need an outlet for your frustration.
College isn’t for everyone. Can his part-time job be full-time?
It can be tricky when they are over 18, even with releases signed.
We ended up with a DBT- based therapist and psychiatrist, paying out of pocket because we were not happy with the choices in our HMO.
We did not do family sessions, but we did meet with the psychiatrist and therapist on our own, more than once, to fill them in on the parent perspective. It was always welcome, and we helped provide pieces to the puzzle the practitioners were not getting from the patient (our kid).
Of course, we cannot MAKE our kid take her meds or seek treatment or make 100% great decisions all of the time. She has to own her own life. Yet, we do want to set her up for success, not become enemies, while also maintaining reasonable boundaries for our own sanity and for her big picture benefit. It’s not always easy to know what to do and when to do it. That’s where a skilled therapist and psychiatrist who have seen it all, can prove invaluable.
I’m going to my first NAMI Family Support Meeting tonight because I can feel that I’m worn down with worry and I need some support!