Our child has narrowed her acceptances down to these 3.
Her dream is to get into a top graduate school for a Classics major with Latin and Greek or possibly Archaeology. We have visited each of these colleges 2 times along with sitting in on classes, doing overnights and attending accepted student days. She loves them all! All classes were of the same quality, she fits in with the students, and loves the appearance of each and is fine with the locations. The schools all seem the same quality with minor differences.
She is our 4th so we did the research on the schools, courses, strength of programs and outcomes for graduates in this field. Problem is not much is posted on each school’s Classic major graduates. She wants to be in academics and wants her Phd. Not a large number of students are in this major nor is the pay great. I know what is important for medical school, law school, and graduate school for science majors from previous experience, but not at all in Classics. Does anyone who is familiar or knowledgeable about Classics with Latin language know how important is the name of the school or ranking for a top Classics program?
My husband and I think she should attend the highest ranked school ( I tried not to let the US World and News Rankings affect our views, but it did) since she has worked so hard. She is not sure which to choose. We are full pay at one and merit scholarship at the others.I know our child feels bad about the cost of it, so that may be part of her unwillingness to choose. We have told her not to make her choice on price as we can afford it. We just want DD to make the right choice so she can do well in school. Any advice?
Are there any concerns that she will find the tiny town that Colgate is in to be a little too limiting? 4 years is a long time for some people to spend in a place that small. Bucknell’s town seems to be a bit bigger, and I think there are other cities nearby.
I recall a thread about Classics awhile back and a poster was saying he had looked at top grad programs in Classics and looked at where those students came from undergrad. Perhaps that would be helpful.
Help her to see that you believe that short term costs are not an issue compared to long term benefits. Then have her compare each school in terms of how she feels about it. Which one would be hardest for her to say goodbye to if she chose one of the others? That is the one she should pick.
They are three great schools. I don’t know much about their classics departments specifically, so hopefully another poster can help you with that. Maybe your daughter could also contact a department chair. I
do think that Colgate is a very special environment-- very friendly, filled with very bright students. And the campus is very pretty. My child is not considering the other schools, so I have no firsthand knowledge of them.
I vote for Colgate, partly on the basis that its college town, Hamilton, is ideal for those students and parents who recognize what it offers e.g. chosen by Forbes a few years ago as one of the friendliest 12 small towns in the US.
It has the venerable Colgate Inn, 2 theaters, the largest independent bookstore in central NY, 2 coffee shops, Italian, Mexican, Indian, whole foody, Chinese, Noodle and deli style restaurants, bars and other amenites - within a
10 minute walk or faster Cruiser ride from campus. Its vibrancy, like Colgate’s recreational and athletic facilities, is partly supported by alumni via the university in order to ensure that the Colgate-Hamilton partnership and environment supports and appeals to Colgate students, faculty, staff and visitors.
Colgate has a great reputation across the board and as TheGreyKing emphasized you would be well served by connecting with the Classics department’s faculty and students soonest.
@ moooop She doesn’t seem to mind the size of Hamilton at all as we live in a rural area right now. She loves doing outdoor activities but loves the city setting also. I’m starting to think that having such a easy going child is making the decision to narrow down the school choice more difficult. The only thing she cared about was the size being under 5000. That is a good point about reminding her that she will be in that size of town for four years without a car as her younger sibling will need it.
I’m not surprised you’re having a hard time differentiating the quality of the 3 Classics departments.
They’re all small, with approximately the same number of faculty & staff. Most professors at all of them have doctorates from top universities. All 3 LACs seem to generate roughly the same number of alumni-earned humanities PhDs per capita, according to NSF data (https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/webcaspar/), which does not break out Classics PhDs in particular.
I doubt even a College Confidential Classics expert would be intimately familiar with the current state of Classics at all 3 schools. Even if somebody here knows the work of some faculty members, s/he won’t necessarily know how effective they are in the classroom. But you could try messaging @warblersrule for an ex cathedra ruling (if he doesn’t first weigh in ex tempore.)
If in other respects you like all 3 about equally well, why wouldn’t you want to decide based on net price?
Cost aside I’d probably pick Rhodes, just because it’s in Memphis and I like BBQ.
@wisteria100 Thank you! I will try and search for that thread.
@TheGreyKing and @markham We did email the head of each of the Classics departments before but not the students. I will have DD ask them for some names of the students she can get in contact with. Thank you for the suggestions and reminding us of the positives of Colgate.
@tk21769 Thank you so much for those links and advice! Also, thank you for the kind reassurance of why I feel so unsure of her upcoming decision with not a lot information out there. This confused STEM mom is thrilled to be pointed in the right direction!
Environment: Two are pretty rural and the other, Rhodes, is in a big city. Memphis will be warmer than either Bucknell or Colgate, and Colgate is probably the coldest in the winter. For city opportunities, Rhodes is the winner. For outdoors opportunities, Colgate and then Bucknell are better choices. All three are (IMO) nice campuses.
Social vibe: Both Colgate and Bucknell are known for their school spirit, preppy and sporty nature, and developed party scenes. I am not as familiar with the Rhodes social vibe.
Dorms and food: they have to live/sleep/eat there for most of four years. This is worth considering.
Academics. All three are known for strong academics. Colgate has the best rep, while Bucknell is known for being a bit pre-professional compared to LACs generally. Consider academic calendars, distribution requirements, courses offered, etc.
And then there’s cost: I know you are willing and able to pay for all three, but consider that any money you save now could help her (our yourselves…) down the road – house downpayment, grad school, etc. Maybe in your case cost is only a tiebreaker, but it’s there as a variable if necessary.
That’s not a very high bar, even if you assume one paid the full sticker price at today’s private school rates (~$65,000/year). In that case, after 20 years you’d have earned what you spent on college ($260K), plus the $200K, even at an average salary of $23K/year.
You can also say that the value of a Humanities major to a person who values it is invaluable. And add that students, both financially aided and full-pay students, pay only a portion of the cost of their education.
These are fine schools and it is up to you to make the best of your 4 years there as a down payment to your entire life.
That’s a challenge the most enterprising college students will be happy to meet!
If your D wants to pursue classics, she will need–by undergrad graduation–Latin at the senior level, ideally have started Greek if not be at a junior level, mastery of either French or German, and have started to read the other. Meaningful graduate work REQUIRES Latin, Greek, French, and German, and Italian doesn’t hurt (though with Latin and French fluency, Italian is easy to pick up). She may be able to get into a good grad program with weak Greek and mediocre French or German, but will be expected to remedy those deficiencies in first two years (whether by extra study or summer programs).
As a result, look at the schools’ language offerings as well as faculty–do they offer Greek? Do they have upper level Latin or just the intro courses and a token “Readings” course? Will the distribution requirements at each school allow her to take all the extra language courses she will need to take as electives in addition to her major (esp if she wants to take ancient history, art, and archaeology courses as per of major rather than just the language)? Basically, does the school have an ancient history prof (in History dept), an ancient/medieval philosophy prof (in Philosophy dept), and an art or archaeology prof (in Arts or in Classics) in ADDITION to the straight ancient literature profs?
I almost went down this path years ago, but took my M.A. and fled to law school instead. My kids take Latin and French in high school every year, and one will have three years of Ancient Greek as well, but neither has any interest in graduate work in classics. Sigh.
Oh, and money matters, because she may very well need to attend supplemental summer programs like UT-Austin’s hardcore Ancient Greek (12 hours in one summer) course (I think they still do that) or one of Middlebury’s language programs.
So @BooBooBear would she need to attend those supplemental summer language programs while in college then? Also, when you say upper level Latin are you talking about 200 or 300 level courses? Your kids sound well prepared in the language department. I feel kinda bad, when this child asked what about taking Latin years ago, I replied “Why? You don’t need it.” I will never say that again! Well hopefully all her extra science courses will have some use.
Re languages, “intro” level encompasses (usually this is the nomenclature) 100 and 200 level courses–those first 12 hours that colleges require for distribution requirements. By “junior” level I mean 300-level, which are often the survey courses in “language and culture” or literature or conversation, that students are often actually taking as sophomores if they came to school with any previous work in the language. “Senior” level would then be those 400-level courses that are focused on particular topics, authors, etc. Majors in classical languages as well as modern languages require around 24-ish hours at the junior/senior levels.
When I mentioned supplemental programs, I mean one of two things–either programs to catch her up or to get ahead, which depends on her pre-college preparation and what she is allowed or capable of taking while in her normal college semesters. As I said, doing anything in classics–whether ancient literature, archaeology, philosophy, or history–will require her to have mastery of Latin or Greek and high competence in the other, as well as the ability to read French AND German along with the corresponding ability to get along conversationally in at least one of those two. (If her intent is a PhD in Latin literature, for example, she would be required to learn Greek but probably only to a low 300-level where she could get by with a dictionary.). Doing a crash-course immersion program for one or two of these languages (to kickstart her studies or just nail down the basics) along the way may or may not be necessary, but would likely at least be helpful.
The course of study I have always heard recommended is to start Latin right away your Freshman year, while also taking classes in a modern language (at whatever level she comes in at). Then, probably in her Junior year, she can begin studying Greek or a second modern language. Middlebury’s summer programs are fantastic because a second modern language could be picked up either by studying just each summer or by kickstarting one summer and then continuing study during the fall-spring terms at her college. When she makes her grad applications as a senior, she needs (for any really good program) two of the languages nailed down, a third well underway, and either the fourth started or a plan to get it done very soon. No good grad program in Classics will take a student who looks like they will have to spend half their time the first few years in language catch-up classes.
It is more doable than it all sounds, you just have to sketch a plan and jump on it starting your very first semester, and perhaps plan to work in some summer work along the way. Take this consolation, though–if she short-circuits the master plan and decides instead to go into business or law, the language study (and discipline from language study in general) will make her extremely competitive on the job market and open up all sorts of international opportunities that most students will not have. Law school is the big fear of Classics profs who try to groom future grad students.
One other thing–do not get too hung up on USNWR or other “general” rankings of colleges when contemplating grad school chances, esp. in this case of a niche area of the humanities. Profs know other profs, and the quality of an applicant’s letters of recommendation matter FAR more than whether the student is from Amherst, Rhodes, Univ Oklahoma, or ASU, etc. Also in some programs–like Classics–whether a student seems prepared for the graduate work (by having language work done already) matters more than a great GRE or fancy diploma. Don’t pick a school where all the profs are assistant professors or emeritus or such–you want a balance of youth and maturity, because it is the word of these people that will matter most.