help with rental agreement

Parent Cafe
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<p>Could anyone help me with avoiding housing lease pitfalls? My oldest D wants to rent an apartment. The owner lives in another state. The rental agreement/lease has a couple of terms that I’m not comfortable with/or understand. </p>

<li><p>“Late Charge: A late fee of $50, plus $10 per day for rent received after the 3rd of the month.” Not that I anticipate any rent being late, but since the check will need to be mailed out of state, what type of mail will insure that the check arrives on time and is documented? </p></li>
<li><p>“Utilities: Resident agrees to pay all utilities and/or services based upon occupancy of the premises except water and cable.” My D would be splitting the cost with the owner’s daughter, so shouldn’t this say 1/2 the utilities instead of based on occupancy? What happens if the other roommate moves out? Would my daughter the be responsible for the entire utilities?</p></li>
<li><p>“Condition of Premises:Resident agrees to keep the premises and all items in good order and good condition and to immediately pay for costs to repair and/or replace any portion of the above damaged by Resident.” Does this include if an appliance just breaks down on its own? No where in the lease does it indicate that owner will be responsible for repairing appliances, air conditioners, etc if they break in a timely manner. </p></li>
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<p>I appreciate your advice and experience. Maybe I am being overly cautious and this is a standard lease agreement. But I don’t want any surprises!</p>

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<p>(caveat - not legal advice here, just our experience)</p>

<ol>
<li> We do S’s rent with an automatic transfer, with a 3-day lead time, I believe (to cover weekends, holidays). We like this arrangement when there are roommates involved - everyone has it arranged in advance, so there are no roommates coming up short.</li>
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<p>If you intend to mail it, do so on about the 24th of the preceeding month. You can postdate the check to the first. We’ve had subletters give us several months worth of postdated checks, which we held and deposited at the first of each month.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Does the lease specify only half the rent? Or is it one lease with two signatures (D and friend)? I would expect the utilities to match how the rent is set up. If the rent is $600 per month, and the lease says $300, then I would expect the utilities to also be halved. Otherwise, your D would be responsible for the whole rent and utilities unless she found another roommate. Is the roommate also signing a lease, even though her father is the landlord? I think I would want her to, because then she would be responsible for continuing the rent or finding a replacement tenant.</p></li>
<li><p>We’ve experienced all extremes here. We also tend to be cautious - once burned. We now take photographs of the entire apartment prior to moving in. (Including close-ups of window sills, appliances, etc.) Your D should notify the landlord in writing immediately of any problems (and photograph them.) </p></li>
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<p>I don’t think any of our leases specifically cover appliances unless the landlord is specifically opting out of having to replace something. (For instance, if the dishwasher, or built-in microwave, is on it’s last legs, the lease might specify that you’re welcome to use it, but if it breaks, it won’t be replaced.) Generally, renting in the US covers “normal wear and tear”.</p>

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<p>I am an Ohio landlord and I can answer most of your questions based on my Ohio experience, but I am not a lawyer, or more specifically a Colorado lawyer. I’ll call the roommates Tim and Tom.</p>

<h1>1 if concerned, send payment through post office with confirmation of delivery, and allow time for mailing delays. That will document the date delivered. Be careful about postdating checks. In many states it is illegal to write a postdated check. Although landlord would probably accept it, he wouldn’t have to. He could mail it back, asking for a correctly written check. Then, by the time he gets the proper one, the rent might be late and a late fee due! Also- while the $50 late fee is legal and common, adding an extra $10 day is not enforced in Ohio. That means a landlord can legally put that in the lease, but a judge is not likely to enforce it. In Ohio that is considered unconsciencable and not enforceable.</h1>

<h1>2 No. You are looking at this as if the landlord had a contract with Tim, and also has a contract with Tom. Not true. He is providing one rental unit and has one contract, and it is with both Tim and Tom. That is why the 2 roommates are not considered independant of each other. Unless stated otherwise, both tenants are usually considered jointly and separately liable for the bills. How is that fair? Well, if a landlord has Tim and Tom as roommates, but only Tim pays his share, then the landlord would be out for 1/2 of the costs that Tom failed to pay. Did the landlord furnish only 1/2 of the unit? Did the landlord furnish 1/2 of the winter heater? - that is- if the thermostat was set on 70, did it actually heat only to 35? No. Both tenants in the unit got full use of the unit. The landlord is entitled to his full payment. Tenants cannot get away with “I paid my share, you’ll have to get the other portion from Tom”. In that case, Tim would need to be paying 100% and yes, thats more than his share, but it is Tom that stiffed Tim- not the landlord. Then, if Tim wished, he could take Tom to court for not having paid his fair share. Think of it that not only do Tim and Tom have a contract with the landlord, but also with each other. Thats why one has to use care when selecting a roommate. Also- if any court action ever occurs, even if one has paid his full share and the other hasn’t, the court action is usually against both tenants, and a judgment against them is public record, and will most likely be printed in the local newspaper(embarrassing), and not only that but it is usually sent to the credit bureaus as a bad debt and can affect both tenants’ credit rating for years. So if there is a dispute try hard to find a compromise rather than going to court.</h1>

<ol>
<li> If the only writing relating to appliances is exactly as you have shown, then landlord is reponsible for appliance repairs that are normal wear. Tenant could be considered responsible if not keeping unit “in good order and good condition” contributed to the breakdown, and tenant is responsible if “damaged by resident”, but none of those would include normal wear. Example 1: A tenant cooking is distracted from stove when phone rings. Grease fire happens, damaging wall, stove, and an upper cabinet. that is all tenants’ bill. Example 2: if the heating element fails in the old hot water heater due to its age, that is normal wear. Unless it states otherwise in the lease, the landlord is responsible for the repair -due- to normal wear- of any of the appliances he provides. Keep in mind too, that “damaged by the tenant” also includes their guests. If tenants are hosting an “Animal House toga party” and a guest breaks a window, and another breaks the door on the dishwasher, then the tenants are responsible to the landlord for those damages. Tenants cannot get away with “We didn’t break it, Crazy Joe did. He lives in Alaska. Get the cost of repair from him.” That won’t work.</li>
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<p>On a side note- just this weekend, a tenant called me late Thursday (the 3rd) for emergency repair- her toilet would not flush out and some nasty water was running over. I immediately called on a plumber, he serviced her toilet the very next day, on the holiday. He found a childs’ toy was jamming up the toilet drain. As soon as he bills me, and I know it will be BIG BIG BIG for a service call on a holiday, I will forward the cost onto the tenant. A childs toy in the drain is NOT normal wear that a landlord is responsible for.</p>

<p>Any more questions or clarifications you are welcome to p.m. me, I’ll answer as best I know based on my Ohio experience.</p>

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<p>Just looked over your OP. Don’t know where I got the Colorado idea from. Anyway, my experiences are based in Ohio.</p>

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<p>One thing that has not been mentioned in the various renting threads. Something I had not thought of even though I have worked in the field. </p>

<p>Check out the landlord. My friends D is currently involved in a nightmare experience. 4 soph girls looking for an apartment in Berkeley. Housing is tight. They look at lots of things along with hordes of other students. The girls want to handle it. They find an apartment. Of course they must pay for June,July and August even though they will not be in town. They sign the lease, pay a large deposit and the June rent. This was done in early May. The girls do not get the key. The landlord asked when they planned to move in. They say mid August. He writes this on the top of the lease. In late June one of the girls calls the landlord and says she is coming up to Berkeley and wants to get the keys and will be staying at the apartment for a week. The landlord says NO. You said you were not moving in till Aug. She calls the Rent Control board and finds out that this landlord has many complaints and judgements against him. Just a bad guy. This girl decides she does not want to live in the apartment. This leaves the other 3 in a dilemma. Do they bail and try to get their deposits back. Have to find a new place or pay the other girls share. I have not talked with my friend to find out what is happening now. I am sure in tight markets this is not unusual. The landlord is running the show since he knows if the girls bail he keeps their deposit and can easily rent out the apartment. We figure he has the apartment rent out this summer and is collecting rent from two sets of tenants.</p>

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<p>Great advice! Thank you for your suggestions.</p>

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<p>Any idea how to check out a landlord from another state?</p>

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<p>mom60:</p>

<p>That’s a weird situation. Do you think the landlord has the apartment rented out to someone else up through August even though your D and mates are already paying on it - i.e. is he ‘double renting’ it? If so, he’s clearly doing something he shouldn’t. I don’t blame the one girl from backing out and would suggest the others do as well. However, they should document everything - especially if he’s double renting it - and file suit in small claims if he won’t refund the deposit. Who knows what other issues are ahead with a landlord like this should they go forward with it and move in!</p>

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<p>Mom60- my D lives in Berkeley, too. That stinks, DD actually has her room sublet for the summer, with landlord permission and DD has had a great record getting her full sec deposit back… DD assumes the roll as the liaison between roommates and landlord (first house had 15-20 people renting) and comes in very clearly telling the landlord she wants/expects to EARN her entire deposit back. SHe asks them what they need done to make sure the deposit is refunded; she makes it very clear she expects it back and wants to do everything to make that happen. This sets up the expectation with the landlord, she has not yet had any one try to abuse them, fingers crossed, and she has made sure the girls all take care of everything, clean up, etc, and takes photos at move in and move out. You have to be defensive, graciously.</p>

<p>About the guy, I think that is illegal, BUT if they bug out on the lease, they may lose the deposit and it may ding the credit of every one who signed- parent co-signers, too.</p>

<p>Please tell your friend to get involved. We have managed rentals in CA and I cannot think of any legal provision allowing him to require rent but not allow access. It is fine to determine move in date, so he can keep an eye on the property when unoccupied.</p>

<p>Can they get a friend there to stop by and see if any one is staying there?? That might be useful in breaking the lease. If they ring the doorbell and some one answers, get a photo, get a stmt if it is a renter! He cannot do that.</p>

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<p>Good to see a rental thread. As I always say in these threads, check smoke, CO detectors and emergency exits. Sprinklers are a plus. Are the hallways and stairways safe? Can strangers get inside the building? One rental property that I looked into was always unlocked. Anyone could just walk into the hallways and stairwells.</p>

<p>We photographed the inside of the apartment too. I had to install blinds as it was a brand new apartment. Also brought in furniture and living stuff. Last month new neighbors moved in above us. They damaged the hallways and interiour stairwells moving their furniture in and I reported it to the management company so they wouldn’t blame us down the road.</p>

<p>I call the management company every two months and ask them if there are any issues that they want to talk about. I like to maintain good relationships with vendors as it smooths over any potential problems.</p>

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<p>Somemom and UCSD Dad- it is not my D but the D of a friend of mine. I have not talked to her in a few weeks so don’t know how it was resolved. They think the landlord might be letting the previous tenants stay longer or he is renting it to someone else for the summer. The sad thing is the girls are pretty much in a bind. If they walk away and break the lease and take him to small claims they will have to come up with money for a new deposit, plus find a place. And from what the girls are saying the landlord has a record of not paying the fines against him. The Rent control board is willing to represent the girls. Sadly one of the girls is the first in her family to go to college with non english speaking parents and she will not be able to come up with money to fund another place while they take the landlord to court. </p>

<p>I work for a management company. We give the keys when we get the signed lease and cashiers check. We also in almost all cases work with the tenant to refund the security deposit.</p>

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<p>Re: the money for the rent…we send the rent check on the 15th for the rent due the first.</p>

<p>Our son’s lease is the same regarding utilities. He is in charge of the utilities. It doesn’t matter to the landlord how many people are living there. The bills need to be paid. The tenants split those utility bills.</p>

<p>My kids’ leases both have something in them about notifying the landlord if anything breaks including appliances. However, the kids don’t pay for those repairs unless THEY damage the appliance. The landlord owns them.</p>

<p>I actually rented DS’s apartment for him and have a nice relationship with the rental agent and the handyman. So does DS. </p>

<p>DD’s is a different story. The kids did the wheeling and dealing. However, they researched the landlords in the area (not hard to do…just ask students who rent there…they are VERY honest) and this particular landlord is very responsive to his tenants, and takes excellent care of his properties.</p>

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<p>Mom60, I hope that some one can check on the reality of the place, he cannot double rent, I think he could let the others stay, but he cannot charge double rent. They better do a full photo record of the house when they move in and stay right on top of every single detail; make them unattractive targets for a scummy landlord, be so proactive that he won’t choose to bother to mess with them</p>

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<p>mom60:</p>

<p>I think you brought up some good advice - checking with the ‘Rent Control Board’ before signing a lease if possible. Do you know if there are similar landlord ‘checks’ that could typically be done in other areas that might not be a rent control area - example: Westwood by UCLA?</p>

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<p>UCSD Dad- I think there is rent control for the city of Los Angeles. I know the rent control is not like Santa Monica (which is the one my company has the most experience with). I will try to ask someone who might know.
[url=<a href=“http://lahd.lacity.org/]Home[/url”>http://lahd.lacity.org/]Home[/url</a>] Los Angeles housing board. You might give them a call</p>

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<p>[Moritz</a> College of Law - Student Housing Legal Clinic](<a href=“http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/shlc/]Moritz”>http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/shlc/) the student legal clinic at OSU has lots of information regarding leasing. they recommend videotaping and photographing the unit prior to moving in and immediately after moving out (include the days’ newspaper). There is much more advice on their site. for OSU students they will go over leases for free.</p>

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<p>I strongly suggest that your daughter graciously back out of this prospective rental situation.</p>

<p>I am an experienced tenant. I have continuously rented in various housing environments (college dorms, large private buildings, small private buildings) since I moved out of my parents’ home nearly thirty-seven years ago. I have rented in owner/owner’s family-occupied buildings twice. The first time worked out well; I was the sole occupant of one of three upper-floor apartments in the permanent ground-floor resident property owner’s three-story family home. The second time was a nightmare; my family resided in a five-unit building owned by a foreign national absentee landlord who used the building to temporarily house herself (while visiting the country) and to permanently house her migrating extended family members, rent-free. When my family first moved into that building, only one of the building’s other four units was occupied by a relative of the owner (the owner’s sister, who functioned as the on-site manager). However, during my family’s five-year tenancy, the owner’s extended family members (adult siblings with their spouses and children) arrived to occupy two additional units. Both my household and the other remaining “outside” tenant household–renting under month-to-month rental agreements–were subjected to frequent and hefty rent increases to subsidize the owner’s relatives’ rent-free residency. We two “outside” tenant households quickly lost our power to request reasonable building services and unit repairs, and–given that each of the absentee owner’s resident relatives (even the teenage children) functioned as the owner’s agent–we also lost our right to “quiet enjoyment” of our respective apartments.</p>

<p>I think it’s risky for your daughter to room with the apartment building owners’ daughter, because your daughter will be subordinate to the roommate. You can assume that the terms under which your daughter rents will be vastly different from the conditions (if any) the apartment building owners impose upon their daughter. Your daughter will have to walk on eggshells around the roommate. If your daughter and the roommate have a roommates’ dispute–however minor–the roommate need only make one phone call to Mommy and Daddy, and they will find a reason to send your daughter packing, probably with the loss of her security deposit, as well as the likelihood of an unfavorable former landlords’ report when your daughter applies for future apartments.</p>

<p>This sounds like the sort of rental arrangement which has the potential to go really wrong, really fast. Unless your daughter is in a pinch for rental housing, I suggest that she rent elsewhere.</p>

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<p>I agree that living with a relative of the landlord seems to be asking for trouble unless you’re previously on good terms with the parties involved. </p>

<p>As for utilities, they’re often not part of the lease (e.g. rent) and residents are responsible for sorting it all out on their own. In those cases the landlord is providing the property to live in but the residents must setup the utilities (generally just calling the utility company to setup a new account). Who pays for what and in what fraction is then up to the residents to sort out on their own. Back in college when I lived in a house with four others we just split each of the bills five ways.</p>

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<p>for the girls that are denied a key; I agree that doesn’t seem legal. True a tenant doesn’t have to live where he has agreed to lease, but I don’t see how it can be legal for a landlord to refuse admission to a tenant with a current lease in good standing even if the actual physical posession is earlier posession than he expected.
I had a tenant one time that I suspected rented from me a small unit as a “love nest” if i may use that term. He paid rent on time, was rarely there, made no noise problems or any other problems. I’m not the moral police and hated to lose him as a tenant. Our rent contract said he had to pay rent, and he did, he wasn’t required to live there.
I recommend 2 things. Since the girls claim to have a valid lease in good standing, send a certified letter to landlord demanding immediate access and keys to the unit. It’s my opinion as a landlord(not an attorney) that if he fails to comply then HE has broken the lease and the girls could cancel the contract(again, in writing) and demand the return of their security deposit. A judge might even order the return of some or all of the rent paid.
Document
Document
Document- before backing out of the lease. To merely back out now, then later request the return of money would appear to be only “buyers remorse” and would strain credibility without documentation.
Item 2 would be to have someone that is not a party to the contract secretly visit the residence to see if it is occupied. Document their findings.
That documentation might go a long way in court, or might be leverage against the landlord that could encourage him to settle quickly to avoid court.</p>

<p>Another possible quick way to get out is to offer landlord a compromise in writing- let him keep rent pd, and sec dep pd, in exchange for immediately releasing you from all future rents or monies due. Yes, that way you forfeit money paid, but if he accepts offer then all are released from future obligations and sometimes just to be free is worth it. No doubt that option is the hardest financially for the girls but the option exists and they might consider it justifiable. Let’s face it, if the girls just back out without thorough documentation, the landlord may sue the girls for breach and might win!</p>

<p>Remember too, that if a person considers settling out of court IMO don’t be firm on getting 100% of all you believe you are owed. Why? Because not having to miss work or school to file papers, pay filing fees up-front, and to appear in court, is worth something. Also, because in court you might win, but not get all you’re seeking. Avoiding a big hassle is worth something too.</p>

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<p>younghoss brings up a good point, if you go to small claims and get a judgement, you still have to collect it yourself, maybe it will happen, maybe not, but it could take months, if you ever get it, so any decision must be made knowing he may never pay back anything.</p>

<p>Also, the other important factor is every one’s credit report- do this in a way that keeps things pristine. If he is a single guy landlord he may not report, but that is a big threat from rental agencies, and they will hit the co-signers, too.</p>