I don’t think this is true at all. There have been studies that show that students who were qualified for the elite schools (GPA, Test Scores, etc) but did not attend these schools fared just as well as those who did attend the elite schools.
Well I am asian parent who is born outside of USA. My daughter and I would be very happy to attend a top computer science/artifical intellegence college like UIUC, berkely, CMU, georgia tech. Unfortunately these school do not offer much merit based aid or need based aid. Thus even if she is admitted, we can not afford the schools, thus we end of applying to Ivies.
My both older daughter wanted to attend MIT and Wharton, but going to those scool would have costed us around 45000 in debt for each, thus they choose to apply to Harvatd which offered lowest price even compared to Yale and Princeton. They end up going to Haravrd as total debt was lowest.
All three kid attened prep school on substatntial aid, we know admission to college is crspshoot, but due to need of $$$$$ we will end applying to Ivies. I ran NPC calculator and still same results, HYP offers lowest net contribution.
Their only choice was getting admitted to Morehead or Robettson scholar, but then again due to high $$$$$ need and crap shoot in admission, you end up with elite colleges that offer biggest need based aid.
Many asians are applying as they see $$$$$ need
Finances work out differently for different families at different schools. For some families, going to an Ivy costs less than the in-state flagship. Not so for other families. So the finances will depend on the family and the school.
I think the Ivies are great for some students but definitely not for others. I also don’t think it is a perfect predictor of success. Many kids will burn out before or after college. I really think that the college needs to match the student and their future. I was heavily recruited by MIT but chose to go to SMU instead. I wanted a life. I got a job at NASA and think I have done very well. My husband was accepted at Rice but went to SMU, then U of H, the University of TX and is a top attorney. Not going to an Ivy didn’t hurt us in the least.
For my son who wants to be a veterinarian he wanted to go to a school with a vet school in the south or Midwest. He found land-grant colleges had some great programs and deals for him. So he isn’t going to UC Davis or Cornell he will still have a great education and if he does well will be able to have a great career.
I think people who are obsessed with Ivies for the wrong reasons should hear that there are millions of success stories from people who didn’t go to the Ivies, had a great time in college and a great career.
Show them the economist college rankings.
Thanks for your feedback. Sorry for the delay.
I haven’t experienced much in the way of blame, merely incredulity about outcomes, which they ascribe to the colleges not having the wisdom to admit DS or DD – not having the perception to notice his or her alleged superiority, when 100% of the time (for me in my work) it’s been a matter of the student’s objective ?inferiority," comparatively speaking. For the most part, I attribute this incredulity to Not Getting Out Enough.
There are many good reasons for applying to Ivies, as with other schools. Financial aid is certainly one of them. I think applicants should be aware of which schools have larger lectures and then TA/TF grad student-led discussions. In that sense, the UMass Boston English department outshines Harvard’s. Having talented peers in your discussion groups is certainly a big plus. Finally, some students apply to Harvard or Ivies because of a particular curriculum for their desired major, or because they like the location, same reasons that people have for their applications in general.
I do want to say again that a degree from an Ivy, particularly HPY, can cause problems on the job in terms of high expectations or resentment. The graduates I know tend to hide their alma mater as much as possible.
I do not think they want to hide HYPMS name but rather not drop school name un necessary as there is no point to be pretentious.
harvard and yale are the best! why? ummmmmm…they just are. there are so many great schools in the united states that these kids have never heard of let alone thought of…and if they cast a much wider net and never bother chasing the ivy “dream” in the first place …they would benefit in high school with a lot less unnecessary stress (being a teen is stressful enough) and a lot of these colleges would be much better suited academically and socially than the ivy league schools are for many of these high school students. to bad when I “preach” about this subject it is liking talking to a wall.
“I do not think they want to hide HYPMS name but rather not drop school name un necessary as there is no point to be pretentious.”
no they badly want to name drop…it is that they want the person to ask and they causally respond. to just name drop would be arrogant but to be asked and than to slowly roll it out …like I went to college near boston . oh what school? a school in cambridge…which one…well if you must know it was harvard.
@zobroward : Wow, you seem awfully sure that you know what’s inside people’s heads. What you said is probably true of some, but certainly not all, nor even the majority.
Speaking from personal experience, @nynycasino1234 is spot on. There’s a LOT of baggage that comes with certain names, associations and experiences, and sometimes it’s easier to try to dodge all that and keep the conversation moving.
Unfortunately, it takes people new to this a while to catch on to the fact that vague geography is a bad dodge for this issue. Better to spit it out and change the subject.
So, instead of.
Where’d you go to college: “Um, in Massachusetts…” [and then inevitable questioning and reveal]
Better to go with:
“Harvard … so, how 'bout those Mets?”
“Wow, you seem awfully sure that you know what’s inside people’s heads. What you said is probably true of some, but certainly not all, nor even the majority.”
why yes I sure am sure. ! I have seen it enough times to recognize the syndrome and the psychology behind it. sorry if I hit a sore spot and that I strongly frown on the validation frenzy so many people seek by chasing after an ivy league diploma.
It is that type of certainty that creates the baggage. Knowing that people such as yourself are going to make a whole host of assumptions about people who attend HYPSMblahblahblah is what makes it such an awkward conversation topic. Say the word [insert fancy-pants school name here] to people who are holding those assumptions and boom, label, predictable comments. It’s a pain in the ass. So some try – hamhandedly – to avoid it.
I’m sure there are others who relish the reveal. Didn’t say there weren’t, but you are painting with an awfully broad brush here.
So maybe start by making fewer assumptions? Let the conversation proceed naturally, and if the person turns out to be a jerk, fine, but maybe also they won’t. Just don’t pretend you know their motivations if they hesitate to reveal where they’ve gone to college. They’ve had this conversation before and they (maybe) don’t want to have it again.
you know of all the things in the world I worry about at the top of my list is the ego of ivy league grads. people go to those schools for validation and quickly learn to play that “humble” game. the brush may indeed be broad but I am not getting a lot of paint on the floor , it is mostly on the wall right on target.
Zobroward, okay I have to ask, did you attend the Ivy league because I did not. If you did, and you are concerned with the clads mates behavior, then you should tell the very people who show you their superiority. Stop conversation and move out, if it offend you. If you did not attend, then ignore the pretentious people as you can not change them, stop conversation and talk to someone more interesting whom you can relate.
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The thing that is tricky about this is that there is almost always a lot more going on (emotionally) than a simple college choice. @IBviolamom, you’re a therapist, so you know this well. It is possible, of course, that the parents are simply unaware of other schools, but in most cases, that’s unlikely. Certainly the parents here on CC are well-informed! And while the FA at these tippy top schools is excellent, students of this caliber will probably thrive at any number of affordable schools.
Here are some things that people have said (aloud!) to me that have influenced their preferences for their kids. Honestly, I don’t think that anyone becomes ivy-obsessed over any one of these alone, but for many parents, there may be a little bit of truth in one (or more!) of these. And it’s hard to talk about it. We all want what’s best for our kids, but we’re also human and have biases.
“I went to IVY as a first gen and I would never be where I am today without that experience and credential. My life was changed. I don’t want my kid to fall back into the life I came from, and I want my kid to have the opportunities I did.”
“I met my husband at IVY and he has been very successful. My DD is most likely to meet her spouse at school and I want the pool to be good.”
“If I am going to be FP, I want that money going to the school that’s going to give me the biggest bang for my buck. If I could get a Tesla and a Honda Civic for the same price, I know which I’d choose!”
“I have fought my school district tooth and nail at every step of the way to get my kid into the G&T/honors/AP program and I want to prove to them that I was right.”
“I get the feeling that some of the other parents are jealous of my kid’s accomplishments and would like to see him/her fail. Truth be told, I may have had a hand in that. Anything less than an IVY acceptance would make me feel like I had to walk away with my tail between my legs.”
“My mother (or MIL) has been very critical of the way I have parented, and an IVY acceptance would be the best way I can imagine to show that my way was right.”
“I don’t want to get a blank stare from my friends when I tell them where my kid is going to school.”
“Most of my friends’ kids are at IVIES and I would feel kind of embarrassed saying mine was not. I’d like to still feel like I belong to that “club”.
“I went to a good school, but not an IVY. I feel like that might have been an option for me. In fact, if I’d known what I was supposed to do, I could have done that. I missed it for me, but want to make that possible for my kid.”
“With wealth inequality going the way it is, I want to do everything I can to get my child on the right side of that divide, and an IVY education seems the best I can think of.”
“My kid is amazing, and I can’t imagine that anyone would disagree.”
“I’ve told my kid that if he worked hard, he could go to an IVY. I’ve kind of been a taskmaster about it. Neither of us wants to be wrong.”
“I have spent so much money on private school, tutors, sports, and enrichment travel building this kid’s resume, and so much time driving, etc. that I couldn’t possibly bear to think that it’s not going to translate into some kind of advantage in college admissions.”
“I came to this country to do my PhD. I still feel a little marginalized because I’m foreign, speak with an accent, etc. Academic achievement is a big deal in my country and in my cultural community. I feel like having my kid at an IVY would be admired by my friends and relatives and would spare my kids so much of what I’ve gone through. They’d get to be the best kind of Americans!”
OP, if you are in a community health field, I would think that any conversation that you can facilitate that would help people acknowledge some of their own “stuff” could be very helpful, especially if they are bringing it to their relationship with their kids. Sometimes, just saying some of these things out loud can help put it in perspective (or allow us to not have to find a dozen other bogus arguments to support our POV.) A group that helped parents through the whole college transition (from selecting, applying and deciding through to moving out of the house and then being home for holidays) is not a terrible idea. Not one I can implement, but perhaps one that you could! I would guess that the parents you have referenced would not join, but you never know – if they thought it would help their kids through the process, just maybe. Mostly, I agree with the poster above who noted that it’s only after it’s all said and done, regardless of outcome, do they realize it does all works out in the end.
“If you did, and you are concerned with the clads mates behavior, then you should tell the very people who show you their superiority. Stop conversation and move out, if it offend you”
There is a good point here. If someone is being obnoxious about having graduated from a top school, then probably other adults who also graduated from an equally top school are the ones who need to tell them to stop.
I’m surprised to read some of these accounts. In my neck of the woods, we tend not to linger or fawn over people’s alma maters (unless we know people that went there and that’s often the case). I think we all understand that everyone is human and mortal. There are a few that tend make a point of it, but they are known as “that type” of person, and certainly are not doing any favors to the image of the ivies. On the other hand, people aren’t labeled for having gone either…
To the youth that are obsessed, the experience I point to is my 25th HS reunion from a few years back. Most there were very happy. The athletes were a bit slower, the “quirky” ones had found themselves, the popular ones were a bit more demure; everyone jumped at the chance to show pictures of their kids. Listening to their stories however, it would be hard to figure out who went ivy.
Perhaps media and culture are to blame. Cute sayings like “what do they call a doctor who finished last in his med school? Doctor.” or “What do they call the Harvard student who finished last in his class? A Harvard grad” reflect the absurd levels to which our culture values prestige. Really, is that the doctor you want to remove your appendix? Is that the person you want to run your company? Give me the a UMich or Maryland grad who got great grades instead (you know, like the ones that started Google).