If she can do EA she should, for both my kids it was an enormous relief. My younger son was not as lopsided, but had SAT CR of 790 and M of 690 and B’s in every term of Latin and quite a few math and science courses got into U of Chicago early. He took a lot of APs so the rigor was there and he really worked at the essays, making them funny and insightful.
Has she thought about Barnard, yet another reach, but I believe they have a strong dance program. Indiana University has always had a good reputation for dance.
These are all good questions to ask the student. I am hoping to meet with her this weekend again. I honestly don’t know the answer to some of them. I was looking at LACs and thinking that there are a number of those that would fit her. It does seem that prestige is important to her, but I am not sure why-not sure if it’s because she might be the only kid at this rural school to actually appear to have a shot and so expectations are high, or if these schools’ focus on the wider world is appealing to her. Her unconventional background might hurt her since she was playing catch up due to the year in NYC (catch up in terms of rigor). OTOH, if the counselor writes a good letter, that could go a long way. I think the fact that she got 5s on the AP exams says she’s capable, and I don’t know how many APs the school offers. I also don’t know what she’s taking this year; I’ll get her transcripts, as well.
I was looking at schools’ average ACTs last night. I am going to suggest she drop all schools where the mid-50th is 32-34/35 (U Chicago, Vanderbilt, etc). For now, the schools with middle 50th at 30/31-34 can stay. She might bump it a point or two just by taking pre-calc this semester. Can’t remember if she’s retaking in Nov or Dec. We can reevaluate after the ACT and subject test(s).
I’ll ask her about Wooster and other LACs. I saw quite a few that had mid 50th ACT at 28-31/32. At least she’s in range with those schools even if they are still reaches.
I also would like to see her dance supplement. We viewed a couple on Youtube, and she felt confident she could do a good one. She’s ballet and contemporary, actually.
She’s very engaging, and will interview well, I believe…not that the interview matters very much.
What am I missing? Is this kid a URM or first generation for college? Are her parents celebrities or development cases? If not, I think this list is way too reach heavy. Brown’s website says that 1% of applicants with math SATs of 550 or less are admitted.
I realize that the OP didn’t mention Brown, just “Ivies.” Still, I think that stat gives you some sense of what she’s up against. If there’s no “WOW” factor you haven’t mentioned, I think it’s highly unlikely she’d get admitted to any Ivies.
OP, OU has a ballet program (auditioned) and scholarships available. http://www.ou.edu/finearts/dance/admissions/ I thought of it because my DW worked in their IR dept some years ago.
Honestly, I had the eeesh moment when I hit the 490. The most-competitives like balance because it hints the kid is qualified to purse a range of intellectual interests.CR 650 isn’t enough to counter that at many elites. Add to that, IR/poli sci can require some math savvy. This just means you notch it down, not focus on reaches.
But, what has she done to further her interest in IR/sustainable farming? Beyond the word “passion.” And what else besides dance and peer counselor? What’s she really selling them? Dig into this, lots of kids have more.
As you know, lots of homeschoolers get rigor, either higher classes or electing APs. She’d need one bang-up GC LoR to get past some of this and you don’t know if her GC can do that. Many just write the basics.
I think the only math course my IR kid took was statistics. If I am not mistaken the ACT math score was much better than the SAT one. I do know of one regular poster here whose daughter went to Barnard with a remarkably low math SAT score. (Missed math in a junior year abroad and also a dancer IRC.)
I cannot imagine a kid from California who cares about prestige keeping Hofstra on the list. I don’t think it has much in common with the other schools she’s interested in.
AFter texting her with your thoughts, she’s totally willing to look at LACs and/or large schools. She also is willing to just focus on her two “dream” reaches, Yale and Boston College, drop most/all other reaches, and look for good finances. I think some of the LACs might offer that. I am taking note of many of your suggestions.
Which sites would you recommend for finding good matches? College Data? College Raptor? College Board Big Future? Or do you like the college match engine here on CC?
Lookingforward, she’s apparently going to get a bang up letter from her counselor. She knows the counselor well since she’s a peer counselor (her main essay is about counseling girls who are victims of sexual violence). The counselor apparently loves her. Hopefully, that translates into a great LOR.
No, she has not done anything with her interest in sustainable farming. Her only service is working with/caring for animals at a shelter. (And Walk for Life) Essays will have to suffice to address her areas of interest.
She will have taken a total of 5 AP classes and 5 honors classes.
I did know of a girl that had fantastic CR and W scores (800 and 790), but both a low math SAT (570?) and Ds in AP Calc. She was shut out of all her reaches except Ohio State, but later transferred to UCLA and is doing well. I want to avoid that syndrome.
Appreciate the advice/suggestions. I really like this student. She’s indepedent-minded, yet willing to listen and eager to learn the best way to approach college apps.
Don’t know that. People are lured in with free apps all the time. I made a list of how much need each school meets. Hofstra was lower than most LACs. It will probably come off the list. I think we can find other safeties.
To be honest, I think it’s really magical thinking on her part to even entertain the idea that she has any chance at all at Yale or similar. She most definitely will not get in. Most schools don’t even care about the writing portion of the SAT. So without that, her score is 1140/1600.
Also, big red flag: If she has a 4.0 UW, I assume she got all As in math every year. How does that reconcile with getting a 490 on the math portion of the SAT? The admissions committees are going to get the impression that her school has grade inflation and they might knock some points off of her GPA.
I don’t know a thing about the Calif system. I know the SUNY system very well, and, in my opinion, she should apply to colleges that are analogous to these SUNY schools: Albany, Oneonta, Brockport, Plattsburgh.
When you fills out the FAFSA, tell her to list the schools in alphabetical order—NOT in order of how much she likes each school. With such a huge and varied list, schools are going to scratch their heads and look for any indication of level of interest.
Personally, we had trouble with the web matching sites, they came up with odd lists for D1. We used Fiske and did a lot of digging on individual college web sites. Granted, the GC had started us with a list on which about 4 colleges seemed like good starts. When you look at a school in Fiske, iirc, it notes similar schools, so we followed the trail.
D1 knew her major, so we were looking for colleges with strengths there. (But she also had a bad math score to overcome.) We dug into the depts, courses, prof strengths. If we found the major was weak or none of the profs had expertise in her area (even if they taught the classes,) those schools were out because a) she wouldn’t be satisfied and b) they wouldn’t be so pulled to her.
We also looked for the rest of what the school liked, in energies and drives, the sorts of activities and programs it offered and valued, and how that matched her and what she had done.
I asked what your friend has done with IR/enviro because the underlying idea is “show, not just tell”- probably a lot more applicable to the higher level colleges, definitely at Yale. There will be high stats applicants who did work on environmental or farm projects or debate, academic bowl, etc, or kids who did something political. And there will be kids who did some significant community service. (There will be exceptions, sure, but you’re trying to overcome the 490 and still strike the right gold.)
Dance does change things a lot, if you find a college that wants her for dance. If she didn’t know about SAT2’s til recently, it hints she’s not reading college websites- and the GC didn’t give her the heads up? Or someone thought her colleges would just take the ACT?
Look at Barnard. They place greater emphasis on GPA than test scores, and they will also be somewhat forgiving of weaker math scores. And they will absolutely love the ballet resume – I think it’s important to them to keep up the quality of their dance department by bringing in talented dancers. A year in an audition-based pre-professional program isn’t quite a hook, but it’s a big tip factor. Actually, in all the years I’ve been on CC, I’ve never seen an applicant with strong dance credentials get rejected from Barnard. That’s anecdotal of course - and I’m not saying it wouldn’t happen – but the GPA is fine and I honestly think that the ad com at Barnard places higher value on ballet than test scores. (As they should, as I think anyone who understands the personal discipline and sustained effort required for ballet would agree). In fact there was an applicant last just last year with relatively weak “stats” who was roundly dissed on the chances threads, but an incredible ballet resume… I told her she’d probably get in and she did.
And the Barnard ad com would also love her essay about counseling girls who are victims of sexual violence. Obviously Barnard is a pretty much reach for anyone, but I’d think an applicant with the profile you describe as better than a 50% chance of getting in.
The student should definitely apply with the ACT score (not SAT). Plus Barnard is a wonderful place for a student interested in foreign relations. My daughter was a poli sci / international relations major, and her first job out of college was working with the UN, helping coordinate high level meetings and conferences among diplomatic staff. FWIW, my daughters’ ACT score was slightly lower than your friends’ – also 28, but I think DD had a 23 on the math part so she her numbers were just on the cusp between 27/28.
Since the friend is a graduate of a California high school, she’s got an guaranteed spot at a UC campus – that’s shouldn’t be overlooked as an affordable safety.
OP- I’m going to give it to you straight. Every moment of every day and every calorie your friend expends thinking about Yale is a moment she could be spending with a big $20 book off of Ebay drilling to get her math score up 100 points. Will that get her into Yale? No. But it will give her so many more options, even with the ballet. And it makes a school like Barnard (and I agree with Calmom- a super option for her given her interests) a realistic possibility.
And at the end of the day- since I’m not a huge proponent of endless test prep- it actually gives this young woman better LIFE options. Learning more math- a good thing. Greater comfort level with numbers- a good thing. Whatever the core deficiency in her math education- addressing it now via some self study to better attack the math problems is going to help her.
The thing about ‘hooks’ like the dance thing your student has, is they only help if the applicant is otherwise qualified . If her stats fell in the middle 50% for Yale, then it may give her a boost, or make her a more desirable candidate than someone with similar scores, but if you are so below the avg for the school then it will not move the needle. You have to focus on match schools and there the ‘hook’ could potentially help.
I think that’s a mistaken assumption because of the year spent away from high school at the ballet program. The student would not have been able to take AP courses that year – but if anything, her overall experience during four years of high school might have been more rigorous than most students. In order to fit in the year with the ballet program, she may have needed to double up on coursework in other years in high school; and her commitment to ballet suggests that she probably spent many after-school hours at the ballet studio during the periods she was attending regular schools.
I think the big problem on CC is so many inside-of-the-box thinkers - parents and students who are stuck on the idea that the applicant needs to have the exact same menu of academics as every other applicant, along with top grades and test scores. And then year after year they are puzzled and disappointed when the kids with the perfect stats get passed over in favor of some kid with a quirky background. If an applicant is very, very good at one particular thing – that shouldn’t be discounted.
I’m not saying that means Yale is a possibility – just that the ballet is a big asset at many schools, whether or not the school has a strong dance program. (Again, the rigor and dedication required to succeed at ballet is something that many ad coms may appreciate.)
Given an essentially perfect GPA (uw 4.0) – the student should have many options. The test scores don’t help, but the ACT isn’t all that horrible. Schools look at the scores in the context of the student’s interests and talents – they are well aware that a student with a profile like the OP’s friend is probably not going to be a STEM major and may not ever take any college math beyond the bare minimum required to fulfill the college’s quantitative reasoning requirements.
And as to blossom’s comment about math – while I agree in theory that it can never hurt to improve one’s math abilities – my math-challenged daughter, who never had an high school math beyond algebra 2, and only one basic introductory stats class in college – got her first job out of college partly because her bookkeeping skills, and now has a job doing financial management… The day-to-day math skills needed in the business world are pretty basic stuff - working with balance sheets, etc.