High school grad rates are below 50% at 17 of the nation's largest cities

Parent Cafe
21

<p>“If they did, they wouldn’t disdain the idea of merit pay so much.”</p>

<p>if you didn’t know, most teachers are paid on a sliding scale based on how much additional education they obtain. The reason they (unions) go for that is quite simply the “rules” are spelled out clear and simple. NOT subject to personal wimbs pro or con towards an educator. </p>

<p>Merit pay is frowned upon, because people(evaluators) have favorites and dislikes. A sliding pay scale that provides raises for phd’s, national certifications, masters and contiuning ed hours is a much better system then the old fashioned arse kissing.</p>

<p>Good teachers are really artists, it’s a skill often lost upon those who are used to the cookie cutter process.</p>

22

<p>OK, so basically, the idea is the pay the forlorn, unenthusiastic PhD that can’t teach to save his life more than the devout B.A. with a knack for teaching, correct? Arse-kissing isn’t going to make kids score higher on state-wide tests. It’s not hard to separate the good teachers from the bad ones quantitatively. Compare test scores, curriculum’s, and student attendance – the differences are often tremendous. Find out who the good teachers are, and reward them accordingly. I don’t see the problem in that.</p>

23

<p>You go for it NearL, that sounds like a perfect plan…get that cookie cutter out.</p>

<p>Tell me why your at it, does every CEO deserve a pay raise if their company posts a profit and does every CEO deserve to be fired if they post a loss?</p>

<p>Life is simple isn’t it?</p>

24

<p>Barney, I don’t doubt for a minute that some good teachers have problems with bad principals. I saw it first hand with my kids’ elementary school. It was the principal I was fleeing when I pulled my kids out of that school, not the teachers. The good teachers had already put in for transfers to other city schools. That doesn’t change my opinion about the obstructionist role of the NEA as a lobbying group against any and all reforms that threaten its position as a labor union.</p>

<p>The current cost per student in the city of St. Louis public schools is over 17K, if I am not mistaken. This is for a low cost of living city in a low cost of living state. The school system is so bad that is has been taken over by the state (not exactly a high standards state, at that). The graduation rate is appalling, but exact numbers are impossible to get because the concept is redefined annually. All attempts to try to shake up the system are shot down by established education groups looking out for themselves.</p>

<p>You asked me if a “bad” teacher is simply one I dislike. I’ve experienced a few bad teachers. Some of them I liked, personally, but they were incompetent. A couple had been competent at some early point in their career but no longer cared. One was just plain dumb; did not know the difference between astronomy and astrology. No, Barney, I can say with complete honesty that my evaluation has nothing to do with whether or not I would enjoy spending an evening with them. Education is important to me; I don’t act silly about it.</p>

<p>Merit pay: bone up on current proposals. You are correct that it is a tricky thing to make the systems fair. Most proposals getting serious consideration are based on the use of longitudinal date (that is, following a student’s progress over time), not on whether a principal likes or dislikes a teacher. Getting the data collection systems in place is a challenge in many districts, and getting competent personnel to analyze the date will be necessary. So, it is a challenge, but I don’t agree that we just throw up our hands and say IT CAN’T BE DONE.</p>

25

<p>“So it will be a pushing match back and forth until someone comes up with a fool proof way to honestly and fairly evaluate an educator.”</p>

<p>Where in the employment world is there a foolproof way of evaluating anybody? Why do the kids have to suffer because the teachers have job security that is unheard of in any other part of the economy? And, then the NEA has the nerve to make it sound like their top priority is the kids. What BS; their top priority is the teacher’s pay, benefits and job security. If it works out for the kids, well, good for them; if not, well, tough.</p>

<p>And Opie/Barney, please don’t distort this as “anti-teacher”. I couldn’t be more pro-teacher. I marvel at the success stories that my wife brings home. I just wish that more kids could have good teachers. It’s the union that gets in the way of not having better qualified teachers which would raise the perception of all of them.</p>

26

<p>“Where in the employment world is there a foolproof way of evaluating anybody”</p>

<p>hence the need for a union to balance the act out. Think of it as a democracy in progress. Without opposing viewpoints we’d have a dictatorship wouldn’t we? We need sides to oppose each other to protect the general public from the “good” each side wants us to embrace… </p>

<p>and by the way, </p>

<p>I don’t necessarily think you’re anti teacher. Your just anti union… pretty much any union. And your focused on the bad, I’m focused on the good. Hence we differ in opinion. </p>

<p>"It’s the union that gets in the way "</p>

<p>I didn’t realize they hired the teacher in your neck of the woods. I always thought it was something you joined “after” you were hired. ;)</p>

27

<p>“but I don’t agree that we just throw up our hands and say IT CAN’T BE DONE.”</p>

<p>forgive me, I must have missed it, where did I post this thought? </p>

<p>I just don’t agree with how you want to do it. that’s all.</p>

<p>And I was just recently in St. Louis, my kid attends med school there. There’s alot of things that need fixing, including driving skills of the entire population. Talk about a group that lives life “outside the lines”…:wink: </p>

<p>Although to be honest, the Bud tour was pretty good.</p>

28

<p>There goes the plan to get families to move back to highrises in the cities. No wonder they flee to the suburbs once the kids start coming.</p>

29

<p>I see the discussion veering away from the subject of teaching children. I will say that in our very good school district we have teachers who do not teach. They are the minority, but they are there. Some read the newspaper and drink their coffee, others are willing to just be taken off topic and ramble about anything other than the subject they are to be teaching. There are some that shop online while showing a lot of filmstirps (I guess DVDs in today’s world), and others do not read and correct student papers. Then there are the excellent teachers who are willing to go the extra mile. They will stay after school and reteach. They will give up lunchtime for students. They will get to school early on a consistant basis for their students. They will call home if a student is absent more than 3 days. They all are judged by the same pay scale. I have never seen our district get rid of a tenured teacher. The ones that go the extra mile often burn out. How long can one do these things without recognition? We had an excellent administrator who worked from dawn and well into the evening. After years of this without advancement he left. He was not appreciated. It was all taken forgranted, IMO.</p>

30

<p>barrons, you hit the nail on the head with regard to many cities. </p>

<p>Barney, I think there is a connection between the brewery business and the rotten driving in St. Louis. I’m glad you mentioned the Bud tour, though. I grew up in St. Louis and still visit very often but I’ve never taken the tour! Time to change that, I guess. (Which med school? St. Louis U.?)</p>

<p>Really, though, back to the thread. How do you know how I want to go about getting merit systems in place? Do you know who I am?</p>

31

<p>“99% of the people in these positions do a great job.”</p>

<p>I got my entire K-12 education at selective private schools, and I wouldn’t say that 99% of the teachers did a great job. I wouldn’t even say that 99% were competent-and-unexceptional. It’s hard for me to believe that given my level of privilege, I got a sample of teachers that was worse than the national average. At any rate, a lot more than 1% of lawyers and doctors do a non-great job, and I doubt that teachers are more consistent than that.</p>

32

<p>Hanna, I agree with you!</p>

33

<p>northeastmom,</p>

<p>Did you ever wonder why those “do everything teachers” support their unions? Could it be they do believe from observation that “there but for the grace of God, go I.”? </p>

<p>I know many award winning, hard working, dedicated educators who also belong to their union boards. They would be great canidates for merit pay with all the professional acknowledgement they have received over the years. They don’t want it if it means giving up the combined strength of the union.</p>

<p>IF they have experience, they’ve seen many good and bad teachers fall under the force of an angry parent, school board member, superintendent or principal along the way. </p>

<p>We recently had a coaches union form here, not too long after coaching contracts were cancelled for the crime of cutting some school board member’s kid. They could tolerate losing, but not if their kid wasn’t starting.</p>

<p>Again educators aren’t stupid, even the best realize without the protections their union offers, they are one poor grade to a certain student away from job loss. </p>

<p>Maybe it’s different where I live compared to where some of you other folks live. I haven’t come across those “fat lazy milk the system union board members” where I live. Just the opposite. So I guess it’s like cars, your mileage will vary…no? Maybe my generalizations are common for my neighborhood and yours are for your neighborhood… I guess I’d move if it was that bad… ;)</p>

34

<p>;) </p>

<p>“Do you know who I am?”</p>

<p>Last time I heard that I was ejecting a coach from a game… made me smile then too. </p>

<p>What I always find difficult with these threads is folks paint with a broad brush. Even me. </p>

<p>As I sent someone in a pm on this subject… I just think If I dwelled on the few poor to bad teachers I had or my kids had, I would be doing a disservice to all the good and great ones we’ve experienced along the way. I choose to think more about the good ones and what I can do for them. Just me, sorry. </p>

<p>I KNOW that my kids (both NMFs) had far more help in their education than I or even my wife could give them. Maybe I’d feel different had they both been dropouts.</p>

35

<p>Oh, I am sure that without tenure teachers are one poor grade to the “wrong” student away from job loss. I am sure that there are personality conflicts and one needs to deal with principals, assistant principals, support staff for special education and students with disabilities, guidance counselors, as well as other classroom teachers. I doubt that everyone is going to like everyone, and that might be reflected in the educators’ files. BTW, my own mother was a teacher.</p>

<p>Again we are not on the topic about the low graduation rates!</p>

36

<p>^^^Uh, Barney, I wasn’t using the phrase in that way. I was joking because you said you didn’t support the same kind of merit systems that I did, and I’m wondering how you know just what kind I support. Those in my community who have figured out my online moniker in some local education blogs know where I stand, but I doubt you are among that group.</p>

<p>While I’m happy to discuss the ups and downs and ins and outs of merit pay systems, I think a more important aspect of the drop-out rate and failing school systems is school choice, both within public systems and across public/private lines. Two potential benefits, from my point of view, are (1) that the competition provides incentives for lousy systems to clean up their act, and (2) the opportunity for families to make an active choice leads to their involvement in their children’s education. It is hard to make a choice if you are completely ignorant of what the schools have to offer; one also has a vested interest in the job the school does if you have actively chosen it.</p>

37

<p>“I KNOW that my kids (both NMFs) had far more help in their education than I or even my wife could give them. Maybe I’d feel different had they both been dropouts.”</p>

<p>This statement says a lot about your perspective. The fact that your school and its socio-economic environment can produce NMFs says that you can’t speak for the type of inner-city school where my wife teaches. They probably haven’t had a student come within 500 points of getting NMF in decades. For them, success is measured by getting at least some of them to graduate or at least stay out of jail. It is very sad. The thing is many of the kids have proven that given the right kind of teaching they can succeed. Unfortunately, most are treated with “the soft bigotry of low expectations” by both their parents and their teachers.</p>

38

<p>That vast majority of academic failure rests on one thing.</p>

<p>Parents.</p>

<p>My great-grandfather was an illiterate peasant farmer but he stressed education very heavily to my grandmother and her siblings. He might not have been able to read, but they sure could. Parent literacy means little. Parental emphasis on education means a lot. Our education spending per student is absurd. If the parents don’t stress learning and the kids don’t want to learn nothing will happen. It’s as simple as that.</p>

39

<p>“but I doubt you are among that group.”</p>

<p>I have the same seniment groucho marx had about groups and clubs…:wink: </p>

<p>“that the competition provides incentives for lousy systems to clean up their act” again it falls back to at least in this state, with charters… it’s competition without a level playing field. Here the idea was to be charters were exempted from so many “educational requirements” the publics have to follow that the field would never be level. Perhaps that’s why it keeps getting voted down here. If the charter people we can do it better under the same rules as the publics… we’d have a game. Again I am speaking about my place not yours. Yours could be different. Here the simple counter statement was if allowing the charters to do away with these requirements to be successful in educating children, why aren’t we doing away with them for everybody? If they are silly for charters, aren’t they silly for publics too. </p>

<p>“the opportunity for families to make an active choice leads to their involvement in their children’s education”</p>

<p>Again going to depend on location. Here the hs is now split up into six learning academes, a tech hs exists, a native american hs exists, an alternative hs exists and another new hs is being built, all public. Parents have choice.</p>

<p>“It is hard to make a choice if you are completely ignorant of what the schools have to offer; one also has a vested interest in the job the school does if you have actively chosen it.”</p>

<p>The rub to this is the people you are talking about have for the most part “made the decision to be ignorant” of what their school system has to offer. </p>

<p>You have to not look at your mail, the newspaper, the internet, or in our case, the school district/city TV channel. Our HS even has it’s own news truck and tv studio(student run). </p>

<p>You have to try pretty hard here not to know what going on in your public school system. Yet, we still have those families too. </p>

<p>The ones that never attend a single parent teacher conference from K all the way through HS. I’ve gone to open houses where the AP classrooms are SRO and to general studies classes where I am the only parent. A 3,000 student HS gets about 500 parents to show up for parent teacher night. What do you do for the parents of those 2500 kids that would rather watch American Idol or deal or no deal than meet their kids teachers?</p>

40

<p>“This statement says a lot about your perspective. The fact that your school and its socio-economic environment can produce NMFs says that you can’t speak for the type of inner-city school where my wife teaches. They probably haven’t had a student come within 500 points of getting NMF in decades. For them, success is measured by getting at least some of them to graduate or at least stay out of jail. It is very sad. The thing is many of the kids have proven that given the right kind of teaching they can succeed. Unfortunately, most are treated with “the soft bigotry of low expectations” by both their parents and their teachers.”</p>

<p>I agree. My sons went to a magnet IB program in an inner city school. The IB students and their families were focused on college and scholarships. In the rest of the school, the teachers and administrators and parents were at best focused on trying to get the kids to stay out of jail and graduate from high school.</p>

<p>The reason that I know this is that I repeatedly volunteered my services to the nonIB families, offering them help with getting scholarships, college info, etc. since their GCs weren’t offering college nights like we got in IB and like other high schools got. I’d offer such workshops and the people who’d eagerly show up would be IB students and families including immigrant parents who could barely speak English.</p>

<p>At graduation, many of the nonIB students were the first in their families to graduate from high school! I had thought that having a high proportion of such people was something that ended in the 1940s.</p>

<p>What I found by doing a lot of volunteer work in inner city schools is that the things that probably everyone on this board takes for granted – parents helping with homework, checking out schools when they move, getting to know teachers, showing up for PTO, having schools with active PTA/PTO organizations, making sure kids get to school – are things that are rare in schools with high proportions of low income people who didn’t graduate themselves from high school. The parents didn’t have parents who did those things, so they don’t know to do those things for their own children.</p>

<p>At the school where my sons went, the PTO (a group of about 5 parents, the majority of whom didn’t have kids at the school, but were recruited to the PTO by someone who wanted to be PTO president) thought the principal should be giving the PTO money. The PTO didn’t understand that it’s purpose was to help raise money and other resources for the school. I wouldn’t have believed this if someone had told me this. I saw it in person as another IB parent and I went out of our way to try to support the establishment of a functional PTO at the school. Meanwhile, the IB parents organization was flourishing, including raising funds for the whole school even though many of the IB families were not well off, but were people who aspired to education, sometimes including highly educated immigrants who weren’t able to work in their fields in the U.S. due to licensing requirements.</p>