High school grad rates are below 50% at 17 of the nation's largest cities

Parent Cafe
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<p>“The fact that your school and its socio-economic environment can produce NMFs says that you can’t speak for the type of inner-city school where my wife teaches.”</p>

<p>Actually FF, we have one of the largest groups of native americans in public schools in our state. Their graduation rates are even lower than inner city kids. When I checked a few years back it was 8% so out of every 100 native americans only 8 graduated. People (the tribe and community) have worked very hard to bring that up. One incentive the tribe did was to offer a free college education to any member who wanted to go after graduating from HS. It seems the casino and shopping center business has been very kind to them. They in turn have poured some of that money into addressing their drop out rates and have made great strides.</p>

<p>In my D’s class a couple years back they were a record 58 native americans graduating instead of the 5 or 6. We didn’t even have to break the union to do it. :wink: Instead we hired the right superintendent and starting working together. Funny how a shared professional atmosphere can move things in the right direction.</p>

<p>We are a pretty average community the housing pricing is in the low 180’s to around 400k. No exclusive neighborhoods, the wealthiest families aren’t that wealthy compared to the rest of the county. We are still considered rural. The silver spoons here belong to Bellevue (paid their Hs football coach $65,000 just for coaching, ours I think is $5k) or Mercer Island. We are far removed from great community wealth. We do support our schools and teachers though for the most part.</p>

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<p>Barney: Is it your honest feeling that, on the whole, a sliding scale of pay based on achievements that are optimistically, at best correlated somewhat with teaching ability is better than merit pay based on teaching evaluation, results and so forth? Do you really feel that annoyed principals, angry parents and so forth actually cause so much of a problem that under a merit-based pay system the distortions they induce would result in a worse outcome? Because I really, really don’t.</p>

<p>Personally, I’d like to see a merit-based pay system that eventually combines with a seniority, tenure-based system that teachers must qualify for, so that teachers would need some kind of obvious and demonstrated merit to hit the tenure track, rather than just being able to tread water.</p>

<p>Let’s throw another (large-scale) anecdote out here: in my city in Canada, the best teachers all gravitate towards the private school system, where they know they will be able to earn additional income, benefits and promotions commensurate with their teaching ability. I have talked to innnumerable teachers who say they left the public school system exactly because it did not offer the same kind of reward for additional merit and effort. These are the same teachers who voluntarily spend lots of time after school working with kids, voluntarily direct extra-curricular activities, and all that - something very uncommon in public schools here. And we’re, by and large, not talking about failing public schools either - most of them do fine - so it’s not totally an issue of “teachers like better pupils”, as many are often prone to blaming it on.</p>

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<p>One constant about discussions about the performance of schools is that there is simply no possible consensus. </p>

<p>Why even bother pointing an accusatory finger at wonderful organizations such as the NEA or AFT? After all, the education of students has never been and will **never **be part of their concerns. As Shanker said, “I’ll worry about students the day they’ll pay dues.” And their agenda show it: a political agenda ensuring their survival and a total commitment to decimate everything and everyone that could endanger their monopoly on education. If that agenda means that the Catholic schools that have served the inner-cities so well have to be chocked to death, so be it! After all, isn’t that what our predominantly secular society wants. If that agenda includes a cynical support of charter schools to further undermine the enemy public ONE (vouchers and tax credits), that is even better!</p>

<p>Indeed, why bother? Well, perhaps we should worry that there are few positive indicators that this graduation crisis will change anytime soon, especially when witnessing the changes in demographics between now and 2050. In the meantime, our country will continue to trail the rest of the OECD in about every educational statistics, except for the money spent by pupil. </p>

<p>Of course, what we can expect are more discussions about the validity of the study quoted by the OP. A safe bet is that about every department “criticized” by the study is spending LOTS of energy and money to contradict the results and present a more positive image. </p>

<p>All in all, the only surprise is that this situation exists in one of the richest countries on earth, and that it has deteriorated since the 1983 release of a Nations at Risk. That is what happens when a country dedicates the fewest resources to the ones who need them the most, and allows selfish, cynical, and dishonest organizations to run the “show.” </p>

<p>What a waste!</p>

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<p>Barney, I am not disagreeing with you in the least that there is an attitude problem among some segments of families. I think it is THE major problem. A big reason I support school choice plans–of a variety of stripes–is the hope that telling disengaged families that the choice is <em>theirs</em> to make, not some anonymous administrator’s, will provide the spark of interest to get them involved. </p>

<p>Maybe I’m naive; maybe not. It seems worth a try to me. Some public school systems spend a huge amount of money and accomplish nothing. Something has to give.</p>

<p>I’m afraid I don’t follow the objection to charters that you voiced above: the whole idea of setting up and experimenting by way of public charters is to test whether better results are obtained by dispensing with some of the standard rules and operating procedures. The removal of some of the rules is the whole point.</p>

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<p>Do teachers have an agenda to protect their job? Damn right.</p>

<p>But the people here who have been attacking teachers such as Barrons and FF have their agenda too. The bourbon class of Republicans here probably sent all their kids to private schools and don’t care. They just don’t like unions because unions support Democratic party politics. If Republicans really cared about the education system, they wouldn’t run around trying to get rid of the Department of Education for about 25 years.</p>

<p>Furthermore, if interested in ending waste and ineffiency, they should start cutting the Department of Defense with a cleaver.</p>

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<p>Do you have any stats on how much we spend on education versus the countries of Western Europe.</p>

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<p>1of42, I’m not sure what private schools you’re talking about but the ones I’m familiar with in the GTA definitely do not pay their teachers more than the public system. Not only are the salaries lower, but the benefits do not compare, particularly the pension plan. I have a D who is a teacher and when she graduated from teachers’ college, she interviewed with and had offers from both public and private schools. Having had many discussions with family and friends who have taught for years, some in each system, the advice she got was to stay in the public system. The starting and median salaries were both higher in the public boards where she had offers. </p>

<p>The differences, as you said, are not anywhere as great as they are in the U.S., and that is yet another particular benefit to raising a family in Canada. I have always wished that there was a way to evaluate and compensate teachers according to their abilities and efforts. We have all seen the teachers who dash out the door at the end of the day, everyday, and we have all also seen the same teachers, year after year, who volunteer to run clubs, coach sports, have free hours of assistance. Coaches here are all volunteer. The idea of paying a high school sports coach would amaze most Canadians. I don’t know what the answer is regarding fair compensation, or if it’s even possible. The unions here do not have the same kind of power or involvement in day to day school operations, as it is sometimes made to seem here on CC to be the case in the U.S. My D has not had any direct contact on any union-related issue in two years of teaching. </p>

<p>The graduation rates which are the subject of this thread are a problem, and they’re a problem for everyone, not just for those students and families who are directly affected. Yes, the issue is likely to start with the family, but that doesn’t mean that the issue should not be addressed by the school boards, communities, governments, and society at large. I don’t have the answers as to how that should be done, but trying to explain away the problem is not the answer.</p>

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<p>Sure, let’s start by comparing the budgetary increases in the ED under Clinton (the education prez) and the following two administrations. </p>

<p>What do you think was the percentage of increase during the eight years of the Clinton reign?</p>

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<p>Let google be your friend!</p>

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<p>As far as Detroit is concerned, there is no excuse for the current situation. Unlike the Flint school administration building NSM cites, Detroit has a BEAUTIFUL administration building. The school board members lavish money on themselves for trips, expenses, etc. The size of the administrative staff is out of balance with the student population. Supplies languish in warehouses because they are never properly tracked. Accounting practices are not properly followed. Basically, those who are entrusted to care for the education of Detroit’s children are failing them … the board & administration. </p>

<p>The classrooms are a war zone. Roofs leak, paint is peeling, floor tiles are missing. Basic supplies are lacking (including toilet paper). Rats are in some of the schools. Textbooks are out of date. </p>

<p>The behavior of older students is downright scary. Teachers are assaulted. Students are assaulted by other students. People who don’t belong hang around the schools. Students drop out at 16, but they check out long before that.</p>

<p>Students’ home lives are a mess. Many parents are too busy trying to make ends meet to give the support they should to their childrens’ education. Other students have parents who engage in risky behaviors. Many students lack a background that allows them to understand things a lot of us take for granted (proper grammar, vocabulary, life experiences). Young girls are raped on their way to school. Drug dealers are a dime a dozen. </p>

<p>Somewhere in that mess are great kids … great teachers … great parents. It’s just that the overwhelming mess that is the Detroit school system makes it very difficult for these wonderful folks to do what it is they could do were they in another environment.</p>

<p>I have no answers. I wish I did. Personally, I am all for trying different things … including the schools Mr. Kilpatrick & the teachers union kept out of Detroit. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it … in this case, though, it IS broke & it must be fixed. Creativity is needed. Help is needed. </p>

<p>Off this subject just a bit … a young man I know was asked to tutor a disadvantaged student from an urban area in the northeast for the SAT. The student scored a 90 on his PSAT … that means he can expect about a 300 per section on the SAT. The tutor was blown away when he saw how the student lacked very basic skills. He says this student is intelligent & he wants to do well. He wondered how the heck the kid could get to this point in his life & know so little, when he seems capable. I had no answer. I sure wish I did.</p>

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<p>Only one administration has followed Clinton from what I recalled. And it doesn’t change the fact that from like Reagan to Dole the Republicans said they wanted to destroy the Department of Education.</p>

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<p>You used those statistics to make your point, now you should cite them yourself son. And Sean Hannity said so isn’t a good citation either :)</p>

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<p>[NCS</a> Published Areas](<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/ncs/ocs/compub.htm]NCS”>OCS Home : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics)
Really comprehensive statistics on what people make for various jobs all over the country.</p>

<p>In Philadelphia, PA. about 60% of students that start 9th grade, graduate high school. this is horrifying. And we don’t have low paid teachers. </p>

<p>I just don’t understand what kids think is going to happen to them if they drop out? There will never be an end to crime, violence and drugs until every single person is at the very least, able to read and write and do basic math.</p>

<p>My mother taught first grade in philly for a while. She said you could tell who was going to make it and who wasn’t that first year. the problems begin before the kids ever get to school. Some of her kids had never held a pencil or had a book read to them.</p>

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<p>My mother taught in an inner city school in NY. She quit for this reason. She was kicked very hard in her shin by a boy in junior high school. BTW, she had the police in her classroom after the lunch hour on a regular basis.</p>

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<p>I would like to suggest to all of you that the most effective solution isn’t necessarily fiddling with merit pay, tenure, or even school choice at the high school level. I don’t know that there’s evidence that any of that works well across a whole urban population. However, there is increasing evidence (google Chicago economist and Nobelist James Heckman) that quality early childhood education DOES make a difference, in high school graduation rates and in adult success.</p>

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<p>This might come as a surprise to you, but I doubt I am your son. Since finding relevant numbers appears to represent quite a challenge for you, I’ll send you in the right direction:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/4/55/39313286.pdf[/url]”>http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/4/55/39313286.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Go to page 170 and start reading and learning.</p>

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<p>Just three words about those incompetent uninvolved dysfunctional inner-city parents who don’t give a damn about thier kids education: IT’S’ A CROCK. </p>

<p>This is the type of dog-eared conservative nonsense that people have been tossing around for years to account for the poor performance of city kids. I will never deny that such parents exist. They do. But their numbers are hyped way, way out of proportion. </p>

<p>I have been at new (public) school openings here and seen mobs of of black and latino parents seeking information to get in sormeplacer where their kids will get a decent shot at learning. I have stood outside the doors when the tests for the NYC specialized high schools (Stuvyvesant, Bronx Science, etc.) are given and seen the thousands of black and latino folks there, urging on their kids and wating for them when they come out. i have talked to many who have written leaders, begged, pled, and in one instance, even quit work to stay home and work on public school applications, all in the name of making sure their kids have a good school to go to.</p>

<p>studs terkel has a famous line: the working man is not stupid. he’s tired. </p>

<p>and so it is with many parents, who dont have the time to show up everywhere they might want to be for their kids and cannot take for granted even the simplest of things many white middle class parents do, like talking with a teacher via mail of leaving work early for a school conference. it is not that most parents don’t care. the vast majority do. so all who parent bash, just stop. look harder and you will find that you are usually very mistaken. do not define us by those dysfunctional few. </p>

<p>as to the original outrage at dropouts, the rate in big cities is unquestionably appalling. </p>

<p>the only thing Bush ever said that I have agreed with is that too many kids are subject to the soft bigotry of low expectation. in too many schools the idea is simply to push 'em through and get 'em to graduate. real thinking, real learning? nahh. that’s for the “good” schools. too precious a thing to waste on poor black kids evidently, whether in NY or Detroit or St Louis or wherever. and yes, city kids are “bored out the door” i have come to believe that this is the critical factor in drop outs and its true whether is a church, public, charter, or private shcool. and it and has nothing to do with teacher certification. it has all to do witjh the respect that kids are given, the esteem in which their intellect and curiosity is held, and the value society places on thier education. their parents care, but the people who run the schools usually do not. </p>

<p>sorry for the rant, but i have seen too many dedicated teachers, on the one hand, and too many lousy curriculums. i can’t let parent-bashing go by, or to let people get snarky and suggest that eduication for city kids shouldn’t be fun and exciting. bad schools manage to wring every last drop of joy and excitement out of learning, drill kids 'till their bleary eyed and then expect them to be grateful. why sould they stay in school. if you had a job like that you’d leave first chance you got. its no wonder our kids do too.</p>

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<p>For a related discussion on the cost of the dropout crisis, the research by Brian Gottlob is illuminating:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/friedman/downloadFile.do?id=256[/url]”>http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/friedman/downloadFile.do?id=256&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>North Carolina has a dropout crisis—only two thirds of North Carolina high school students graduate. One reason this crisis has not received the attention it deserves is because the state was reporting badly inflated graduation rates (supposedly as high as 97 percent) until it finally adopted a more realistic reporting method earlier this year.</p>

<p>[Friedman</a> Foundation - Research](<a href=“http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/friedman/research/ShowResearchItem.do?id=10071]Friedman”>http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/friedman/research/ShowResearchItem.do?id=10071)</p>

<p>More than 119,000 Texas students in the class of 2005 failed to graduate from high school. The state’s overall graduation rate is about 67 percent. Only Mississippi has a higher percentage of its adult population lacking a high school diploma.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.texaspolicy.com/pdf/2007-02-PB07-dropout-js.pdf[/url]”>http://www.texaspolicy.com/pdf/2007-02-PB07-dropout-js.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Alarmingly high dropout rates in Texas public schools are attracting the attention of taxpayers, legislators, and the media. While the Texas Education Agency has long reported “dropout rates” of well below fi ve percent, outside researchers have scrutinized these low figures. Most conclude that the true dropout rate in Texas is closer to 33 percent—meaning that one out of three Texas high school students fails to graduate within four years.</p>

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<p>That is why parents of the minority groups are the staunchest supporters of school vouchers. And, for what it worth, the staunchest opponents form quite a dysfunctional family with unions and arch-conservative trying to outdo each other to ensure a status-quo.</p>

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<p>I still don’t see why, in the macro sense, folks don’t see school dropouts as evidence of the “success” of public education. The whole point of standardistas was that if too many folks were passing the tests, they weren’t really good tests. Dropouts fuel the engine of industry requiring more low-grade service workers who can be hired without providing health insurance (after all, they failed 10th grade math, so they don’t deserve it.) They will die younger, hence not collect Social Security or Medicare, and keep wages for everyone else low as well. It’s a good deal!</p>

<p>There is no “dropout crisis” - it is a made-up problem by those who, not satisfied with the tremendous profits to be made in exploiting the dropouts, would like to use the public trough of the schools as a source of private profit as well.</p>

<p>What’s the problem?</p>

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<p>Xiggi, want to state where your comment came from that we spend more on education and pupils than other similarly developed countries like in Western Europe.</p>