<p>Why? You did not like the first source? It had pretty graphs to go with the text.</p>
<p>subsidy, click on the link in xiggi’s last post. It pretty fully supports his statement. Based on what looks like 2006 numbers, the US spends more than any European country other than Luxembourg per pupil in primary and secondary education, and more per pupil relative to GDP than all but a handful of countries.</p>
<p>Isn’t that a GOOD thing, especially when it isn’t being spent on those who drop out or who are going to drop out anyway?</p>
<p>“Is it your honest feeling that, on the whole, a sliding scale of pay based on achievements that are optimistically, at best correlated somewhat with teaching ability is better than merit pay based on teaching evaluation, results and so forth? Do you really feel that annoyed principals, angry parents and so forth actually cause so much of a problem that under a merit-based pay system the distortions they induce would result in a worse outcome? Because I really, really don’t.”</p>
<p>42, have you taught? I been involved for 30 years, actually been considered for school board as a vaible canidate (should have married that prositute instead, a much more honored profession;) ) I have seen first hand what can happen and what does happen. From these observations I coined the phrase “little power”. </p>
<p>That is, we all know when Bush passes gas 24/7. Do we know what our school boards are up to? Do we know when a board member sends word of his displeasure of his daughter being cut from the soccer team? Do we know when a HS prinicpal is forced out of a district by a superintendant because she fears the HS principal could replace her? (The HS principal got another job in about 20 minutes elsewhere.) Alot of bad things occur out of the light of day to innocent people, simply because they made the wrong person mad.
Little power is great because more often than not you can do just about anything you want without alot of people checking in on you. </p>
<p>What we have for pay scale is based on improving yourself by basically continuing your college education. My spouse, a 30 year teacher basically has the education credit hours of 2 and a half degrees. Roughly 10 years of college. Our system works basically by rewarding those who improve themselves by gaining more educational knowledge. We also pay out of our own pocket for those credit hours. Why do I think it is a fairer system? It rewards years of dedication (summers, evening classes etc.) to the craft. Rather than a 15 minute observation on a english lesson to determine pay. </p>
<p>We tend to judge teachers on a few seconds of observations. Even a year sometimes is not enough. A teacher who takes off at 3:30? Maybe you weren’t up at 5 am when she got there? Or maybe she has to drive 60 miles to attend a 5 pm class at your university? (true situations) maybe she has children who have a game at the HS and she wants to watch? Or were you there on the weekend when she was?</p>
<p>Yes, some teachers split early for the wrong reasons, but not all of them. Some of them didn’t know they needed to check with you…
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<p>I am for a consistent measure of progress of a teacher. The hard thing in education, very few things are constant because it involves children. Children are unpredictable for alot of reasons. You figure out a way to make em into widgets and we’ll figure out a way to fairly evaluate production. </p>
<p>The misses has experience in both special education and regular education. In special ed some kids, the goal was to get them to use silverware. For another student, it was to get him to stop pleasuring himself in public. In regular ed, in a past year she had 6 kids who didn’t speak english at all and only one was hispanic. You figure out how to “widget” them. Is she a good or bad teacher if she can get a kid from the ukrane to read english to a low second grade level in a third grade class? By the way she doesn’t speak five other languages, a couple of which were tribal dialects… Yup it’s easy to evaluate how good a teacher is.</p>
<p>This is not statistics, but it is an up-close observation from a teacher in a position to know. If you require pedigree to respect him, he was a Harvard graduate with a PhD who taught math in a low-income high school. He taught remedial Math, along with the top level of Honors Math classes in a school where AP was a meaningless letter combination. When a rare bright light passed through the school, he set up independent study for that student with no ceiling on content.</p>
<p>He was a veteran teaching colleague in the same district where I taught First Graders. Sometimes we taught siblings and shared notes or shop-talk. He was a caring individual, superb teacher, humble and soft-spoken. </p>
<p>His analysis was that our troubled, impoverished rural district was just beginning to get a handle on the drop-out rate when the NY State Regents began to follow suit with NCLB, a new piece of legislation then. Tests were upgraded, high schools shifted to become “all regents” schools with no more options to graduate with a regular diploma. Suddenly, everyone was talking about tests.</p>
<p>I assumed my colleague meant that kids dropped out because they couldn’t pass Math or Science tests. He said, roughly paraphrased: "No, we can train them to pass those. It’s the Social Studies Regents test that is the killer every time. They can’t read and process the textbook, understand a graph or map, put together the concepts or write a response. Even if they could understand the history story line, they have insufficient literacy skills to handle the Social Studies reading, which requires a synthesis of all skills in reading and math. </p>
<p>“So, they take regular llth grade U.S. History and fail the Regents test. Then they go to summer school in History, fail the test in August. Then they repeat 11th grade. When they still fail the Regents that June, there is no way they will ever return to high school. We try to talk them back, but they’re done. How many times can they take the same course, fail the same test 3 times, before they drop out.”</p>
<p>They can’t read, haven’t been able to read well for years. Nobody in h.s. is teaching low-performing regular students how to READ anymore at age 17.</p>
<p>Which really gets back to JHS post, based upon research. Early childhood education and early literacy skills are essential. Without them, there is no getting to the finish line for many students.</p>
<p>To blame red herrings from unions to tenure to merit pay really IS silly. Students drop out for many reasons, but one is they can’t read well enough to pass required tests. </p>
<p>How many times would YOU bang your head against a wall before quitting? Three strikes and they’re out.</p>
<p>You know at what point do any of you ask if the drop out rate is 30-40% where are the parents? If your kid was failing a subject, or just skipping classes, wouldn’t your size 9 be up their backends? </p>
<p>Maybe what we should really do is have a chargeback rule. If your kid doesn’t graduate, you pay the government back. </p>
<p>We reward kids (and parents) who do well with full scholarships. carrot and stick? </p>
<p>One bad teacher or even two bad teachers (or 5 or 6) AREN’T going to stop a kid from graduating if they want to. </p>
<p>If one of my kids were among that 40%, they wouldn’t have a life social and possibly actual… maybe that’s the reason why they did well?</p>
<p>“Which really gets back to JHS post, based upon research. Early childhood education and early literacy skills are essential. Without them, there is no getting to the finish line for many students.”</p>
<p>Our kids grew up with books, lots of them. My spouse’s classroom has almost as many books as the libarary has. That is such a true statement.</p>
<p>A recent Heckman survey article:</p>
<p><a href=“http://jenni.uchicago.edu/human-inequality/papers/Heckman_final_all_wp_2007-03-22c_jsb.pdf[/url]”>http://jenni.uchicago.edu/human-inequality/papers/Heckman_final_all_wp_2007-03-22c_jsb.pdf</a></p>
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<p>I assumed the real question under discussion is WHY teenagers can’t read and WHY their schools fail them to the point that they cannot pass required tests, and therefore just stop attending school.</p>
<p>So, keeping in mind that the real question is how do we organize schooling in order to reach the hardest to reach and <em>teach them how to read</em>, questions about teacher selection and compensation, school choice as incentive for school improvement and the obstructionist role of NEA and other vested organizations with regard to meaningful reform efforts are not “silly”. I find that characterization offensive.</p>
<p>I’m sorry you are offended. I have worked both in poverty public and poverty charter schools. The real difference was that without union protection in the charter schools, teachers’ back pay was withheld; there was intimidation by administrators constantly; a revolving door of inexperienced and idealistic teachers blindsided by the problems of poverty; assaults from students upon teachers went unreported because it laid bare the lie that changing from public to charter would change the essential problems of the neighborhood and its residents. Charter schools could keep out special needs children and therefore ramp up their statistics on academic performance, as compared to the public schools serving the same community a block away.</p>
<p>Charter v. public is, in my opinion, another red herring, along with bashing unions or hoping for “merit pay” which is more likely to resemble the $l00 bonus I once received for a year’s perfect attendance than the corporate bonuses in the thousands some might imagine. School pay is small potatoes so I’m assuming merit pay would be, too. Has anyone ever cited an actual dollar amount, or just discussed “merit pay” as an ideological concept? </p>
<p>Unions ensure that teachers stay safe at the most basic occupational/hazard level: bathroom breaks, annual raises, protection from political cronyism at the school board level, the ability to report abuses and assaults, and much more. </p>
<p>Get real.</p>
<p>EDIT: I too am for “reform” but want it to be based upon research about the actual reasons students fail, such as literacy deficits. I’ve heard the politicized fantasies, trendy talk about “merit pay” and “accountability.” In my experience, these are “silly” reforms because they do not get at the root cause of the problems of students. These are theories that just bash teachers and unions, for reasons that have more to do with politics than learning.</p>
<p>“Unions ensure that teachers stay safe at the most basic occupational/hazard level: bathroom breaks, annual raises, protection from political cronyism at the school board level, the ability to report abuses and assaults, and much more.”</p>
<p>Most other white collar workers manage to “stay safe at the most basic occupational/hazard level” as you describe it without unions.</p>
<p>High school problems, try 3rd grade.</p>
<p><a href=“http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080401/ap_on_re_us/children_s_plot_9[/url]”>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080401/ap_on_re_us/children_s_plot_9</a></p>
<p>WAYCROSS, Ga. - A group of third-graders plotted to attack their teacher, bringing a broken steak knife, handcuffs, duct tape and other items for the job and assigning children tasks including covering the windows and cleaning up afterward, police said Tuesday.
ADVERTISEMENT</p>
<p>The plot by as many as nine boys and girls at Center Elementary School in south Georgia was a serious threat, Waycross Police Chief Tony Tanner said.</p>
<p>“We did not hear anybody say they intended to kill her, but could they have accidentally killed her? Absolutely,” Tanner said. “We feel like if they weren’t interrupted, there would have been an attempt. Would they have been successful? We don’t know.”</p>
<p>The children, ages 8 and 9, were apparently mad at the teacher because she had scolded one of them for standing on a chair, Tanner said. A prosecutor said they are too young to be charged with a crime under Georgia law.</p>
<p>School officials alerted police Friday after a pupil tipped off a teacher that a girl had brought a weapon to school, Tanner said.</p>
<p>Police seized a broken steak knife, handcuffs, duct tape, electrical and transparent tape, ribbons and a crystal paperweight from the students, who apparently intended to use them against the teacher, Tanner said.</p>
<p>Nine children have been given discipline up to and including long-term suspension, said Theresa Martin, spokeswoman for the Ware County school system. She would not be more specific but said none of the children had been back to school since the case came to light.</p>
<p>The purported target is a veteran educator who teaches third-grade students with learning disabilities including attention deficit disorder, delayed development and hyperactivity, friends and parents said.</p>
<p>The scheme involved a division of roles, Tanner said. One child’s job was to cover windows so no one could see outside, he said. Another was supposed to clean up after the attack.</p>
<p>“We’re not sure at this point in the investigation how many of the students actually knew the intent was to hurt the teacher,” Tanner said.</p>
<p>The parents of the students have cooperated with investigators, who aren’t allowed to question the children without their parents’ or guardians’ consent, he said. Authorities have withheld the children’s names.</p>
<p>Police expected to forward the results of their investigation to prosecutors, Tanner said.</p>
<p>Children in Georgia can’t be charged with a crime unless they are at least 13, District Attorney Rick Currie said.</p>
<p>Martin told The Florida Times-Union of Jacksonville, Fla., that administrators would follow school system policy and state law in disciplining the students.</p>
<p>“From what I understand, they were considered pretty good kids,” Martin said. “But we have to take this seriously, whether they were serious or not about carrying this through, and that’s what we did.”</p>
<p>Four mothers of other third-grade students at Center Elementary called for the immediate expulsion of the suspected plotters.</p>
<p>Stacy Carter and Deana Hiott both cited school system policy stating that any student who brings “anything reasonably considered to be a weapon” is to be expelled for at least the remainder of the school year.</p>
<p>“We don’t want our children around them,” Carter told the Times-Union. “The one with the knife could have stabbed my child or someone else’s child at lunch or out on the playground.”</p>
<p>“This is an isolated incident, an aberration. … We have good kids,” Center Principal Angie Coleman told the newspaper.</p>
<p>I never equate teachers with “most other white collar workers.” In numbers, pressures, and continuous responsibility for safety of others (small, young, dependent), they are more like police or firefighters who certainly do have unions.</p>
<p>“In numbers, pressures, and continuous responsibility for safety of others (small, young, dependent), they are more like police or firefighters who certainly do have unions.”</p>
<p>In numbers, maybe. In pressures, not even close. As to “responsibility for safety of others”, teachers are more like traffic cops and desk sergeants than rescuers who risk their lives entering burning buildings to save the injured.</p>
<p>I have to agree with JHS. Early childhood intervention is essential. I substitute teach in a so-so district with a variety of socio-economic levels. I am amazed at the difference in the kind of work that CAN be assigned in classrooms in the same grade level in different schools. The schools with more students from low socio-economic households have to deal with a large number of student who are unable to recognize letters, do not know letter sounds, and/or cannot relate sounds to written letters. They do not recognize numbers, cannot count, do not understand the concept of counting on. So much time is spent getting these kids up to speed that the teachers cannot give the kind of assignments to the class that I see given at other schools. The schools with fewer free/reduced lunch students have a majority of students who have the skills the other group lacks. Kindergarten size runs in the mid 20’s, it’s 1/2 day, and there is no aide in the classroom (sometimes there is one for 40 minutes to an hour a day). Oh … and don’t forget the 3 or 4 students who miss class regularly, the 4 who come late every day, the 6 who waste the first 1/2 hour of class eating their school breakfast (no multitasking capability for kindergartners). The school system will offer full day kindergarten next year, but still no full time parapro … and I forgot to mention that our district mainstreams all spec ed now (no aides unless for physical reasons & then they are only to work with their charge). </p>
<p>With early intervention, perhaps these students would be better equipped to handle the curriculum that is expected of a kindergartner. Then perhaps they would not have already decided by 2nd grade that they can’t do the work … because the kids who do make that decision have chosen the path to failure in school. I saw their future when I subbed in 9th grade Remedial Reading/Remedial Math. A group of kids told me this year that their RR/RM class was being disbanded at semester. I asked why & they PROUDLY told me that they never bothered doing any of the work so the school decided not to continue to offer them that class. When I told them they are too young to give up, they told me they don’t care. I don’t believe that … I think they got too frustrated long ago & gave up way back then.</p>
<p>Don’t tell the teachers at Columbine or Thornton Ore or Paducah Ky that they are “desk sergeants” and not rescuers. Fact is, teachers need unions because when they complain on behalf of student safety, it’s the unions that press the administrators to act. Singly, the teachers have NO power whatsoever to ensure building safety for themselves or their charges. Parents would be wise to recognize how often unions intervene to ensure physical safety for teachers, students, and staff who all work under the same roof. Do you want your kids taught by someone who hasn’t been allowed to go to the bathroom or eat for 30 minutes? The attitude that a teacher’s health and welfare is irrelevant to the peace and well-being of her/his classroom is an astonishing disconnect here.</p>
<p>No money is being spent on dropouts. No union members are teaching dropouts. Wal-Mart is employing dropouts.</p>
<p>It’s a good deal for everyone!</p>
<p>“Unions ensure that teachers stay safe at the most basic occupational/hazard level: bathroom breaks, annual raises, protection from political cronyism at the school board level, the ability to report abuses and assaults, and much more.”</p>
<p>Indeed, while nobody should deny that those are important issues, it is rather unfortunate that the “much more” includes protecting known pedophiles and making it almost impossible to fire undesirables(read NYC rubber rooms) and, of ocurse, being only interested in delivering less services for more money (read contract negotiations in NYC city,) or simply walking out of the job as they did in Opie/Barney’s neck of the woods in one of the most abject strikes ever. </p>
<p>Unions are ALL about teachers and nothing else. While they should have ONE seat at the table, it has been absolutely irresponsible for our country to have “allowed” (read been bribed into allowing) a professional organization to exert such control since the 1960’s. Pretending that the unions care about students and families is such a canard! </p>
<p>No real dialogue about education will be possible as long as the NEA and the AFT are able to use their financial muscle for political purposes. </p>
<p>Teachers might need unions but parents and families would be better served by a drastically reduced role in directing our education future.</p>
<p>Xiggi,</p>
<p>you must thank god everyday that you’ll be able to homeschool your children when you have some… </p>
<p>You simply have no idea. </p>
<p>“Pretending that the unions care about students and families is such a " canard!” </p>
<p>Wouldn’t that be true of just about everybody out there? Our administration? our government? It’s just a matter of who’s kool aid ya wanta drink. My fav is raspberry, what’s your’s? cherry? </p>
<p>Who cares for kids xiggi? who? </p>
<p>Is it the other side in administration/union negociations?</p>
<p>Which side? C’mon time to prove your point. Since you paint one side as evil, what great points can you make about the other? </p>
<p>The sad thing is with a 30-40% dropout rate, nobody cares not even the parents in those cases.</p>
<p>Barney, you must have met union reps who you respect and perhaps love. I have met people who deeply care about the students who are part of those dropout statistics. Some of those people have worked --and are working-- with courage and abnegation, and often in poverty. Despite their work ethics and success, they find themselves part of a group that is hated and despised by the same union leaders you are so quick to defend. While the stance of the unions appear to be rethorical, the reality is that their sole objectives are the absolute control of our education and the eradication of all non-secular form of education. Of course, it is not hard to understand their fears of what a parallel system with equal funding would mean to a hegemony build of mediocrity and complacence. They only have to look at countries that were a lot luclier than us when it comes to education freedom and choice.</p>
<p>Do the unions care about children? If they did, they would not be so morbidly vengeful in their crusade against vouchers that might benefit families that opt for a Catholic education, and many more that would if they could afford. Your union is one that prefers to dance at the funeral of a private inner-city and complain about having to serve the poorest among us. </p>
<p>But, yes, I have no idea.</p>
<p>PS Buy the book More than a dream, the Cristo Rey Story.</p>